Karaoke Forums

Lon you make a good point there about keeping it subdued ! That does help. But for me it just isn't necessary to have.

I did think about sticking it out and retraining the regulars, but being I really don't need it I voted against it.

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I don't really 'need' it either, but there is ALWAYS a time that comes up where someone will start talking to you in the midst of announcing or someone on stage that will change their song at the last minute & this is where a dead air silence can occur. Again, the fill music takes absolutely no time away from the singer just keeps something constantly going soundwise even underlying your own announcements.

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I am adding to my previous post(s) because the subject keeps attracting comments from those who have no need and have never used filler music. If I were new to running a show, I'd would like to be "armed" with the knowledge of when and how to use filler music from those who use it.

If a show consistently draws a large number of singers, I can't imagine filler music, or the lack thereof, ever becoming an issue with the singers and/or audience. Clearly a large rotation indicates a need to get singers up and down as quickly as possible to accommodate as many singers as possible. Therefore, filler music, if being used, should only occupy a scant few seconds in between singers, unless one of the singers has momentarily "disappeared". In which case, that would be a perfect explanation for why it's worth having filler music available.

IMHO, the best input regarding the value of filler music will most likely come from those who HAVE to use it, rather from those who find no need for it. If someone has never NEEDED to use it, that doesn't mean there aren't shows at which filler music would be a necessity.

There was a valid question asked about the possibility that using filler music early in a show when there are just 5 singers could cause some of the early singers to stop coming back. That would depend on the following:

1. How often are there just 5 singers at the start of that same show every week?
2. For how long a period did/does the show have just 5 singers?
3. Is each singer singing once or twice per turn?
4. How many songs did each singer sing within that first hour
5. If filler music was utilized, how much filler music was in use compared to karaoke songs?
6. How many non-karaoke, spending customers left the premises due to shear boredom with the entertainment?

I will say IMO, from experience as a singer, that a third of the KJ's mess up my turns at singing, one way or another. If someone comes early and there is a "small" crowd at the start, and that early arriving singer feels that he/she didn't get to sing enough how many other experiences have you had with KJ's where it would be valid to say they screwed up your experience?

For example, there are KJ's who take it upon themselves to start "later" when there isn't a large enough crowd. Some keep the show going beyond the announced ending time; some don't! The KJ's, however, don't realize that there maybe people who were only planning to stay till a certain time due to their work schedules or to babysitters that must be home by a certain hour. So, if a show starts at 10pm and the sitter has to be dropped off around midnight, why stay put at a 10pm show that hasn't gotten started by 10:30?

The other night I went to a show, and got "screwed" by a poorly managed rotation. I arrived at 9pm, the show ran 6:30-10:30. At 9:45 we had finished our dinners and had run up a bill of $36. I had yet to sing once. At 10:00, when the KJ began her two songs to restart the rotation, I learned that there were seven singers ahead of me each doing two numbers! Clearly, she was planning to go into overtime to complete the rotation. My wife, however, decided it was time to leave and she was right!

Even if we did stay, was it worth going through all of that for me to sing two songs? I had only gone out that evening because I "needed to get out"!

My point is not to take this discussion off thread, but there are many ways to screw up a rotation and it can be accomplished by the inappropriate use of bumper/filler music. But that can only be determined by experiencing the "show" where such music is being used. Again, successful show which don't require much in the way of filler music doesn't provide experience with WHEN & HOW to use filler music when IT IS NEEDED!

I use filler music because I'm still using discs. I just bought compuhost & all the necessary computer hardware peripherals, but compuhost will arrive in about 10 days ( i wish they would do it by download!). I did buy a twin drive cdg player so that I could have the next song cued up ready, but when someone changes their mind when they get to the stage, the dead air goes on & on so I now just use that 2nd drive for filler music whilst I call the next singer & change the disc.

Maybe that will change when I have it all transferred to computer.

Babs, you brought up ANOTHER good point. How the "filler" music can actually be a NEGATIVE tool for the kj's use. That's why I mentioned the (robotic, or computer generated) sounds, in the beginning of this thread. I don't know exactly what they're called, but I know I've seen them on public tv, where the instruments are playing themselves. ANYHOW, I was thinking of using something like that to fill, between singers, and in the background while I am making announcements. I may even use the video versions, (if I can find them). That way it will be entertaining, but yet it won't be anyone's "FAVORITE SONG". I'm just starting out, and my brain is in OVERDRIVE, trying to cover all the bases. That's why I'm HERE getting all of this WONDERFUL ADVICE. Maybe I might be lucky enough to start out on a good foot, instead of falling on my face. Babs, thanks for your advice now, AND in the PAST.

Rosario

6 String

It might, but you could still have someone come up to talk with you as you're "running out of singer". Resulting In Dead Air (RIDA)

You could have a singer come up and tell you that they have changed their mind as to what they want to sing. RIDA

You could have a singer come up and find out that the track you queued up is not the one they asked for (bad handwriting or brain fart on someone's part). RIDA

You could have a singer come up and find that they don't know the song and just walk off the "stage". RIDA

And much that happens after such circumstances regarding the amount of dead air will be determine on your ability to multi-task and get everything back on track quickly. Some of us can do that better than others. Sometimes I forget, under such conditions, to "reach" for the bumper button!

It's only a negative IF the kj allows it to be one ie letting a full song play when asked. If you do not give in & get the next singer up & start the singers song then it no longer a negative.

I'm thinking people are confusing filler music again BTW. It seems some see filler music as full songs in between singers, I see it as a short snippet. Maybe it should be called transition music as it's played while transitioning from one singer to the next - nothing more.

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Ericlater, you're OBVIOUSLY a much faster typist than I am, when I started COMPOSING my last comment, your's wasn't there. You ALSO have it right on point, I only plan on using the "filler" when it is necessary, since I'm by no stretch of the imagination a "DJ". Again, I may have some slow nights, and I'll do whatever it takes to make it through the night. If that means I have the same five people singing two songs in a row, or whatever it takes. I'm easy, if people want to sing fifteen rotations, I love it, so again THANKS for ALL the suggestions, and KEEP THEM COMING!!!!

Rosario

I'm going to sit back awhile, you guys are WAY TOO FAST FOR A HUNT AND PECK typist, both Ericlater, AND Lonnie posted before I had a chance to get that last post.
Just keep on with the discussion, I'm reading, but NO WAY can I get into the conversation. SORRY!!!

I guess there will always be some reason for dead air, the hosting software has an option to play 'filler' music, although I agree with Lonman's definition more as transition music. The one I find most annoying is when someone fills in a slip for someone else who has no idea and you have to stand & watch in embarassment as his mates attempt in vain to drag him out of his seat.

I have the filler music play at a much lower volume than the karaoke music so its purpose is clear. I did have 'oops upside your head' play once and a bunch of people got down made the boat on the floor so I turned it up & let it play.

I'm not a K J, but from the perspective of being singer junkie, when I first heard filler music done, I was pleasantly entertained. That was till the filler song was a song that I was going to sing, .

I understood at that time that dead air couldn't be avoided simply cause the discs had to be changed, but now with lap tops, couldn't one song lead right into the next one,? That would be wild! Think too of how many more songs could be sung in a night when you have 2- plus singers. I think it would be worth the effort it would take.

The K J would have to know the singers and call them out two turns in advance. I don't know, maybe it can't be done.

I agree, that we should find a consensus on whether "filler music" refers to music used to fill "voids" during an evening's entertainment or to provide some other entertainment benefit unto itself vs music used primarily to transition singers.

I really like the distinctions suggested by Lonman, "transition" vs "filler". I think we all know the difference with such defined terms. I have found shows with good size rotations that don't use transition music and some that do.

So, I say again that it would be most beneficial if only those who have found themselves hosting a show where at some point the karaoke singers did not fulfill all of the entertainment needs of the venue were the ones to share with us how they respond/responded to the lack of singing entertainment during the course of their show.

Typhoon

Another singer could also, just as easily, do a song you planned to sing. I went to a show a couple of weeks ago and the singer in rotation directly ahead of me, twice, sang songs I was planning to sing. And... in each case I have never ever heard anyone do either one of those songs other than me. And you know what? It was great HEARING them done. When I sing 'em, it's not the same as hearing 'em. So go know! I immediately picked other songs for myself and survived!

EDIT: To answer your question about laptops, it all depends on size of the
RAM, the software you have and how adept you are at using that software. And of course, what type of files you OWN for the filler music!

In reference to not having enough singers, we were like that for a few weeks because we were just starting a business and convinced a place that was certain karaoke wouldn't fly to give us a chance. We use "transition" music (bought off ITunes, etc. via a laptop, karaoke tracks are all CD&G) but we did not play entire songs to make up for no singers. Instead, we put ourselves in the rotation with the two other singers who showed up, let the bar tendress have a song or two and eventually when more people came we took ourselves out of the rotation.

Rather than fill with music, we would have a "Dare to sing songs you would never normally do because no one is here to hear it" night (That actually turned out to be fun) or let people have two songs in a row or pointed out that a night with no one there was a good time for a newcomer to try it. I think if we had tried to fill the time with canned music instead, we would have lost momentum because singers want to sing and it was fun for THEM to get a lot of turns, even if it wasn't that good for the bar's bottom line or our nerves. We made it seem like their own private little karaoke party.

But I think letting the singers sing paid off because we are now getting 15 to 20 a night and growing. The singers HAVE mentioned to the bar owner that they like that we don't take up rotation spots when crowded so I'm sure they wouldn't like us playing entire filler songs, either. But they HAVE commented that they like the"transition" music because it keeps the mood going.

The other thing is, we did try to play some jokes or novelty music in between and no one is really listening that much so they would miss it and it fell flat. And it is nice to have the transition music at a lower level so people can get in a bit of conversation without shouting.

sadly many of the cdg tracks when ripped into laptop have bloody great gaps of nothingness at the front while they do the manufacturers message name of song etc...to trim that out would potentially muck up the synch with the lyrics graphic...I have tried setting winamp to leap over the gap but its an inexact science...cold starts for intance will see winamp half way thru the first bar at the start instead of starting with the music.
As a matter of fact if anyone knows how I can overcome the gaps in the beginning of song I would be grateful cos its a pain in the derrier for someone who uses them as backing tracks not karaoke...yeah I know I could strip the graphic away and learn the words by heart...but I know around 400 songs and prefer to read a crowd rather than do rigid sets...so I really need the flexability of having words on screen rather than trying to rummage around in books for the right page

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So Leo,

You felt out the crowd and made a decision as to what would work best for the situation at hand.

What would be most helpful to know is:
- How long ago was it when you was just starting out?
- Were you charging the "going rate" at the time?
- How many other patrons were in the bar besides the two singers?
- How long did it take for you to get up to 20 singers (there are old-hands at karaoke around me that don't get 20 singers)?
- And how is that 2 singers turned into 20 (word of mouth, friends of the two singers, advertising)?

Morgan,

You can play the songs with karaoke builder's free player...

you doubleclick the CDG songfile, and you can skip ten second increments, thirty second increments, and sixty second increments... (I use this to test if the rip worked good)

http://www.karaokebuilder.com

This is to answer Eric's questions, everyone else can skip this overly long post:

1. I think we started early October.

2. No, we weren't getting the going rate but we needed the experience and the bartender was certain karaoke wouldn't work on a Saturday so he wasn't going to pay any other host to do it anyway--he was looking for a band. We also first got the okay from the Friday karaoke hosts --they get $150 and they didn't want to work more than one night a week. The bar owner has tipped us as much as $140 since we started getting crowds and if the crowd thing doesn't turn out to be a fluke, we will renegotiate or go where we can get paid regularly. I had an equipment mess up and spent more than I had planned fixing it so had to lay low and pay our dues practicing while I got the money to pay for the business licenses, insurance, etc. I just sent for the license today. Once we are legit, we will be marketing ourselves more and we will ask the going rate. We do have a fledgling website that has our song list on it and we have the address on the singer's slips but I haven't heard any feedback as to if anyone has looked at it yet.

3. When we had just 2 singers, there were a few people playing pool or slot machines and a few just having a drink after work. In our enthusiasm to whip the crowd into a frenzy of excitement over our show, we drove the non-singers out by doing rock and roll instead of something low key and relaxing to start. We also drove people out by begging them to sing. Are you laughing yet? I think we could write a book on what NOT to do.

4. It has taken us until December to realize the increasing crowds might not be a fluke. November was depressing but when we relaxed and just sat and drank with the few people who were there until a singer arrived, then things started to go more smoothly. We had to start enjoying it before the people could. It has been really shocking the past few weeks to walk in and see people already there filling out slips.

5. We haven't advertised because I wanted to be "legal" first. But the bar where we do our show is near a crossroad where any one coming to, through or leaving the town can see the marque outside that says "Karaoke Friday and Saturday." I don't know the exact reason we started getting more people. We are patrons of the Friday show and the regulars there told us straight out that they liked us and all but they could only afford one night out and they were (rightfully) loyal to the Friday hosts who have been there 7 years. But the things people have TOLD us they like are that we took the trouble to have updated equipment and have good sound (per Lonman advice) we don't take up rotation spots once we start getting slips, we get in songs that the singers request or want to sing. We have songs from this century in our books and that has brought a few people back who just came in for a look. We also look up songs and fill our slips for the seniors and people who can't see too well in the dim lights.

For reference, the Friday hosts often have up to 30 singers. We could be getting some of the people who don't want to wait so long to sing. There are also some larger venues within an hour's drive (with karaoke hosts who get $400/night) and the gas thing could have kept a few of those people closer to home.

Oh--and the one time we do play the "filler" songs clear through is just before the show starts when we switch the speakers off from the bar radio and on to our system. Then we let a few songs go all the way until the official time to start.

Whew.

Leo

Thanks for your effort and penchant for details. I think many of us will find what you have shared to be invaluable

eric

Leopard, I found your posts both very interesting, and informative. As far as singing, I like to sing the first song (to make sure everything is sounding right), then at the start of each rotation, as this gives other singers a "marker" that another round has begun. I've finally found the (music video) I'm CONSIDERING for my "transition" music, and POSSIBLY as "filler", it's called Animusic. Any opinions, or comments welcome.

Rosario