Karaoke Forums

Hello all,
My name is Mike and Ive been reading this site more a while now and would like some advice if possible. I'm not a professional and do karaoke at home on a regular basis. I also host about 5 parties a year for 20 or so people, also at home.

I've used various home karaoke setups in the past from a cheap $50 player at Best Buy to my current Cavs 203GUSB. The karaoke bug bit me along time ago when I was stationed in Japan. My wife is an amazing singer and our 203g through the Home Theater is not doing her or me(horrible) any justice.

My ideal setup would be something I could use to get part time work in the future even if that means adding some items then as needed. Currently I have about 6,000 songs made up mostly of SCDG and SGB(i know, i know) and recent downloads.

Max Budget $900 including mixer.
I intend to eventually go computer while keeping the CAVS player.
For a mixer, I am going to buy either the the Mackie profx 8 or 12 because the USB Out for recording is a must(very excited for this feature).

My dilemma comes in when trying to select speakers. Powered or Passive? Do I need a sub? Do I need an Amp? Will 1 speaker to start be ok? I walked into a guitar Center yesterday and my head is still spinning. Is there any other parts I'm forgetting? I'm struggling to wrap my head around this issue. I want something I could gig with eventually and not be laughed at, but could use at home tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for all of your posts. You help many more people than you probably realize.

http://www.mackie.com/products/406m/index.html
I would suggest this amp/mixer combo. It's a mono unit and is great, They do have stereo ones as well but I don't think it's necessary. It is what I use and has lots of features. For the home use, just add some good professional (not home speakers, you'll blow those) 12 inch speakers like a Sonic or similar with bass, and horn all in one. A lot of KJs here like EVs as well.
http://www.mackie.com/home/showimage.ht ... -Slant.jpg
This one is nice too. It will be my next one. I don't see a USB out, but I'm sure something can be adapted. With the unit you have chosen, you will need an amp.

I went through the same process trying to understand what to get for a good start-up and you can review various suggestions from different users on this forum in the following thread:
http://www.karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15156

Powered Speakers (see list in above thread) + Non-Powered Mixer such as the Yamaha MG82CX ($150) or MG124CX ($250) or Mackie DFX-6/12 or ProFX-8/12 - would provide great quality sound and are powerful and expandable enough for future outdoor gigs as well.

Other mid-entry powered speakers to consider are from CARVIN - a well known company in San Diego with great products, service, quality and support:
- the molded series LM12A 350W (x2 $660) or LM15A 350W (x2 $780)
- the wood series LSx1502A 350W or LSx1503A 425W (3 way)
- the LSx1202A is not suggested as it does not have enough response in the low frequency.

These CARVIN speakers are made in USA - come with 3 years warranty and would definitely be a step-up from the Behringer ones in all terms.
http://www.carvinguitars.com/speakers.php

Within $900 budget, you won't be disappointed to get a pair of CARVIN LM12A ($660+SH) or LM15A ($780+SH) + a Mixer such as Yamaha MG82CX ($150) or Mackie ProFX8 ($230).

Hope this helps...

Thank you for your help. That is a good thread that Ive read through a few times. Are powered speakers preferred over passive?

Not at all. It just depends on what you are looking to do. I use both powered and passive, myself.

For powered speakers, the pros are:

* matched well to amplification
* don't require external amplifier

Cons are:

* require power be routed to them
* heavier
* more fragile

For passive speakers, pros are:

* more rugged
* lighter
* don't require power cords
* can be connected to powered mixer or amp

Cons are:

* may not match amp well
* need amplification

The ultimate portable setup, IMHO, is a powered board mixer with a pair of passive speakers. One power cord, and you are installed. If I had to cut down, I would go with the Yamaha 5016CF and the Yamaha S115V speakers as my rig. Everything you need in one setup, for less than $2000. Enough power for most karaoke gigs, great sound.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Other pros/cons of powered vs. non-powered speakers:

Powered:
- If one powered speaker is down, the show can still be alive with one left.
- Easily expandable: Just add more powered speakers in the chain for more coverage and power as needed. No additional mixer/amp required.

Non- Powered:
- If the amp is down and no backup available, the show is down.
- If more speakers are needed, more matching amp are needed too. At the end, there may be too many gears to carry...

Good one!


True -- with the caveat that the most common failure mode of an amp is one channel down, in which case the show can go on.


Don't forget you can add a powered speaker to systems with passive speakers too.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Totally agreed with mckyj57.

I guess that from a newbie stand point, powered speakers with a simple mixer would constitute an easy and simple setup to start with when compared to separate amps + passive speakers that many advanced users and pros go with.

Cheers...

At the end of 2007 we went from a rack that contained two amps, crossover, outboard effects, mixer, etc., that weighed probably close to 180 pounds. Add to that two passive subs and two passive speakers. HUGE amount of lifting. We dropped down to one Mackie sub and two sets of active speakers - SM350s and SM450s. 350s are the ones we use most with the sub. Now we have two speakers, a sub; a small DJ rack that holds mixing board, a Tascam burner, and a DVD player (we have some European karaoke heavy metal DVDs we carry). Add a PC shuttle, a keyboard, a mouse pad, and a 17-inch flatscreen monitor. We put it all on a four-foot table. Quick setup and tear down, easy enough for me to lift ((((arggg))))middle-aged female - not muscle man, with the exception of the sub, which I can't carry very far. However, it sure beats the setup we used to use.

The cost of the SM450s has dropped because they have brought out an upgrade. GC has them advertised often... They are fantastic speakers - we combine them with the amp and have more than enough sound for a college sized gymnasium (we provide DJ'ing for the local roller derby teams at their bouts).

I am loving the active setup. Still hate setup and teardown, but it is a lot less intimidating.

First off I'd like to say that this speaker/power matching thing has been taken way to far. A speaker is only going to be "under powered" if you try and drive it louder than the amplifier can supply before clipping. I doubt highly that this is a major concern in a Karaoke situation. I've seen countless threads stating that the Yamaha EMX512SC or 5016 or EMX 5000-12 doesn't supply enough power for Yamaha's SW115's. No technically they don't, but they sure do supply more power than you will ever need doing Karaoke and long before they clip. I'm pretty sure Yamaha had in mind that customers would match their powered mixers to their speakers. That being said, it works the other way also, I always buy more amplifier than my immediate needs dictate, I think of it as future proofing myself. If I need more speakers in the future I just add a couple to the existing amplifier, driving each side @ four ohms instead of eight. To me it just doesn't make any sense to cut it to close when buying amplification, especially when you take in to account the price difference between 1000 watt, 2000, watt or even 3000 watt amplifiers.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

But if you are in a situation you need to bump that volume up - as I am in often, it does make sense to match your speakers to you amp. IMO there is no reason to not match the speakers to the amp - most of the time you will have enough volume when needed instead of just getting an amp that will just make sound.

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I'm not sure what an amp "that just makes sound" is. Whatever it may be I am sure I don't own one. I think you are fully aware of what I use and I think my equipment is quite capable of doing more than "just making sound". You forget, I am the one that believes there is no such thing as to much power. At the same time though I also have an EMX5000-12 that I use as a backup and rest assured it can drive everyone out of medium sized venue hooked up to a pair of SW115's with very clear sound and long before it even thinks about clipping. I've even used it hooked to a pair of JBL SPL225-6's that are rated @ 1600 watts each, talk about a mismatch. Did I drive the speakers to their full potential? No, Did I drive the speakers loud enough to do the job without clipping? Yes. I guess it doesn't know it isn't a perfect match for the speakers. That's why I say this "matching" is going a bit far, with a little common sense and some experience a person knows what a system can and can not do. Most people on here don't have 30 to 40 years experience at this like you and I do and they tend to take things very literal. Yes, a close match is ideal, but 99 times out of 100 an EMX512SC will do a very capable job even hooked to SW115's.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Listen to these guys, Lonman and Londonlive. They know what they're talking about and if you follow what they're saying and understand it you'll be fine.
For my personal experience, 400-500 watts per channel at 4 ohms will be plenty for nearly any bar Karaoke situation that most people will encounter. That can be (2) 8 ohm speakers per side! That's enough sound for hundreds of people.

For example, a QSC RMX 2450 or a Behringer EP 2500 will work nicely. You can get a Samson PG 3800 that will put out 900 watts per channel at 4 ohms or 560 wpc at 8 ohms for around $325-$350 if you know where to buy. A Yamaha EMX512 powered mixer like what I have is plenty for nearly any Karaoke situation.

More efficient speakers will get you even farther and allow you to use a less powerful amp if that's all you have. I have a pair of EV Sx100+ speakers that have 12" woofers that are low power consumption/high output speakers that are clear and very good for vocals. You could run them off an amp that puts out only 200-250 watts per channel at 8 ohms and they would be plenty loud. Two on one channel at 4 ohms in mono at 500 watts is plenty for most bars or restaurants. If you're in a place that needs more than that it's a pretty big room.

A pair of Yamaha S115V speakers will give the same results.

One more thing. For home use, speakers with 10" or 12" woofers will be just fine. Good quality speakers of that size can even do a bar IMO. If you're on a budget, watch craig's list. I've gotten some great deals that you wouldn't believe.

ebay is also an excellent source for speakers, mixers, crossovers, equalizers, microphines, cables etc. Either craig's list or ebay, you still need to do your research on brands and models and know what to look for.

Even Behringer, Samson and some other not so fancy brand names can be just fine for just starting out. I just got a small Alesis unpowered mixer off ebay and the effects are better than on my Yamaha powered mixer. I had read that Alesis effects were decent and I found out that they certainly are. Vocal effects can make a huge difference, HUGE.

But you have more experience & can tell when a system is starting to go into a clip mode & can compensate accordingly. I'm mainly talking about the guys that buy a speaker that handles 1200 watts program then buy an amp in the mentality that thinks that a 100 watt amp will be enough - yes this is an extreme but have seen it ahppen then they wonder why when they turn it up to compensate for the crowd that it is tinny & distorted and sometimes blow a horn - reason, too little power pushed into clipping! I mainly try to match power to the program rating in most scenerios - if it's needed or not is another topic, but if it's there to begin with is going to be less of an issue than if one buys an amp just to get a sound rather than matching the speakers rating to the amp. You know as well as I a 10 watt amp CAN blow a 1000 watt speaker if driven to clipping for any length of time.

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What these guys are talking about is clipping and it can cause damage to your speakers. You will have distortion and it will sound bad. The simple remedy is to use an amplifier with more power output than what the speakers are rated at RMS. A speaker rated at 250 watts @ 8 ohms should have an amp with at least 250 watts per channel @ 8 ohms and an amplifier that puts out 350 or 400 watts per channel @ 8 ohms is much better. That way it's unlikely you will ever push the amplifier into clipping.

I can see how powered speakers can be much simpler for a lot of people. No need to worry about matching the amplifier to the speaker. Just plug your mixer into the speakers, plug your mic into your mixer and adjust the levels, you're off to the races.

Powered speakers cost a bit more, but it's a simpler system.

My plan is to have a rack with my amp, crossover and equalizer and to put the mixer in it's own small rack that will sit on the table or wherever you put your mixer and CD player or laptop. My motto is nothing over 50 pounds. If the amp, crossover and EQ are too heavy together they'll be split up and the EQ, crossover and mixer will go in one case and the amp will be by itself in it's own case.

Actually this is exactly what i'm talking about. Someone sees a speaker with an RMS rating of 250 watts, meaning (more than likely) the actual PROGRAM rating is 500 watts - THIS is the amount you really want the amp to push. Most speakers of today have three ratings RMS/PROGRAM/PEAK - match the amps power rating to the PROGRAM rating & you should not have any issues.
MANY people think that if their speaker handles say 250 watts RMS, then an amp that pushes that 250 watts is safe - not the case - especially when you turn it up because once you get over the amps safe rating, it is puching nothing but distortion & losing frequency range.

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Sorry, I used the wrong term.
My EV Sx100 speakers are 200/400/800. continuous/program/peak
The EMX512 puts out aprox. 350w @ 8 ohms and aprox. 500w @ 4 ohms
and it appears to always have PLENTY of power to run the EVs.
I never push my speakers near distortion volume levels.
The EMX512 actually seems to run better under a 4 ohm load and there is
never even a remote blip indicating clipping even at fairly high volume levels.
People blow speakers primarily by carelessness and negligence.
Push any motor too hard and it will fail. Use common sense.

People blow speakers primarily because of ignorance .

That is why it is important to start with properly matched amp/speaker. If you know what you are doing you can 'cheat a bit'.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

350 --> 400 is a very good match. If you are within 20% low and 50% high difference, it is a pretty good match and you should be happy.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

350 watts into 8 ohms is ca close enough match for a 400 watt program speaker.
You never push to distortion because there is enough reserve power available to use before distortion occurs. Take that same speaker and an amp that pushes 150-200 at the same volume levels, you will probably start to detect a difference.

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