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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:03 pm 
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An older gentleman showed up at our show the other night - I asked him to sit with me so we could talk. Come to find he had been a very busy live band musician for years and years but had retired several years back. Anyway, he has only been singing for about six months, much to the surprise and chagrin of some of his musician buddies....They simply could NOT believe that he would do 'that' (karaoke). Relative to their comments, the discussion came around to the time when karaoke broke onto the scene and what happened to the attitude of live bands when they felt they were being pushed out by it.

He said something that I'm surprised I had not heard before, or that I had not considered myself - in fact, he stated, karaoke has allowed places to continue to have LIVE music because during the week karaoke MORE than pays for itself, allowing places to 'bank' a little that they can use to defray the costs of live bands on the weekends. It is a fact that live bands just don't make what they used to, and we both decided that it wasn't karaoke that had done that.

We also touched on the fact that most clubs are not constructed or designed for live music anymore - used to be granges and small community halls everywhere that had stages - even green rooms - but that is a thing of the past. Space constraints have changed the amount of space that is dedicated to music, live or karaoke. Places seem to opt to provide more seating than anything, in hopes that those chairs will be filled by paying customers.

I have been and continue to be on both sides of the karaoke-versus-band debate and have been fortunate enough to be successful with both. It seems karaoke is like espresso - one of those little pleasures that even in tough economic times people will continue to pay for. Bands are struggling and the cream ultimately floats to the top, but those that don't make it with live music continue to try to blame karaoke for their lack of success. After listening to some original bands lately, I can definitely say it isn't karaoke that is keeping them from succeeding - it is 99% of the time just lack of talent. Three chords per song, a wall of Marshalls, and growling singing will only appeal to so many people.

My two cents for this last day of 2008. Hope everyone has a safe celebration tonight, and a screamingly successful 2009!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:57 pm 
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I know a person that was in a band that switched to being a KJ. They say they are doing much better as a KJ. I worked at a place that had live music on the weekends. I thought the band was pretty good, but you often heard the same songs done over and over (some of those songs I learned while bussing tables I now sing in karaoke :mrgreen: ). You can really have a diverse listing of songs sung on any given karaoke night.

That said, I think it would be more fun to sing in a band.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:10 pm 
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Karen I could show you some dance halls or clubs in this area that are closed or havnt had a band in for years. Years ago the bands could shift from country to rock with a few change of instruments and actually sounded like 2 different bands. They always played a gospel at least once a night or during every set. I have "guest" sang with many bands and with the old ones there is no difference to me singing with a band or a good karaoke system.

I have done benefits where we were sandwiched in between bands, for 2-3 hour sets. A few years ago band members were blown away with the advances of karaoke systems for we were using the same stuff only in most cases a lot less wattage. It takes a good band for I can setup and start singing and increase the energy and entertainment level a bunch. No brag just fact. But during these sessions the bands respect for karaoke would increase and we would come away with a mutual admiration and realize we both had our spots.

Any good karaoke system can compete with 3 piece bands and even some 5 or more piece bands. Especially with the older crowds because of older DJ music. I have been hired specifically for 50th wedding anniversaries for the big band oldies.

The bands and I have never been in direct competition many times they would come in, sing once or twice and announce their gigs and we would promote them. At my last gig we were tilling out more than the bands.

The smart bar owners started having bands DJ'S and karaoke and each would serve the purpose and actually draw the same crowds. That's why I increased my DJ library and shifted formats to the combo.

I wish I had of discovered Myspace years ago I would even have a better relationship with the local bands. In case you havnt noticed by now this one of the things I have spent many hours on a bar stool thinking about. Good thread Hon..

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:28 pm 
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Quote:
hat said, I think it would be more fun to sing in a band.



The most pleasurable experiences which made all the hardships and bad times worth it was singing with mariachis and bands all over Europe and in mexico. I bonded with people in minutes and we couldnt even speak the same language. I was an ambassador in the first degree. There are enough new members here and for the occasion I will post my music lesson story again.

Happy New Year!! Felice Annual Nuevo!!!


Quote:
The first year of the sixties was probably about the worst time to go into the military. But times were good, a man or woman either one could work forty hours a week and support the family before the lawmakers convinced everybody that they were responsible for the economy. We had the best music in the world Johnny Cash E P and all in between. With two A M radio stations you could get the best country or rock. At two in the morning right after a drag race Shreeves Port L A was kinda good too.

The bands in those times were country that could rock and rock and roll bands that could play country but all managed to play a couple of gospels sometime during the night. They started setting up with wierd lookin geetars leaning against the amps and I dont know whether it was the booze or all the gals in tight jeans but god we rocked.

About four year later I found myself with about five other sailors in a little bar in France on the southern coast. We were yearning for Trader Vic's in Portsmouth and a band who could really rock doin Long Tall Texan and others. There was only us the barkeep and a few old Frenchmen who would pounce on the cig butts we were snuffin out and smoking them in their pipes.

An old man walked in with a very old violin and threw his tam on the bar which we found out was to collect the few lira for entertainment. Bobbie Darr, a Texan looked at me and said oh god we got to listen to this crap now. After a couple of songs I didnt have clue what they were, I said I'm gonna hit him with Wild Side Of Life. I walked up put a dollar in his hat and belted out You woodnt read my letter if I wrote yuuuo. All of a sudden I thought there was a fiddle player out Memphis or somewhere for he kicked in the best country fiddle moanin you ever did wanta hear.

We sang evey song we knew leaned some Medditranean stuff and even when we were doin cattle call and yodeling and screamin even the old guys were screamin and laughing and crying..I sat down awhile to catch up on the drinking and he played songs that made me weep, laugh and feel emotions that one seldom ever feels. He opened our heart and gave our soul wings. It took one whistlin and a couple of us humming but we taught him Orange Blossom Special. I dont know what I'd give to listen to him play just one more time.

And when we were walking back to the ship I realized that my appreciation for music had changed forever. I dont hardly classify or put music in specific genres. If it's good it's music.
And it dont make any difference if it's comin out of a big array or from an old violin if it makes your soul fly it's music That old man gave me a music lesson.....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:38 pm 
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I am a guitar player in a band, as well as being a full-time KJ. Any local musicians who would look down their noses at karaoke don't have a thing to say to me. Most musicians I've met realize there is a place for karaoke (as well as poker, darts, pool leagues, etc.). Bar entertainment comes in many forms, and all can be equally valid, as long as the bars make money from it.

The point about karaoke nights helping to pay for the band nights is a good one, although it's unlikely that many musicians realize this.

Pretty much my whole life revolves around music. Most musicians in local bands can't say that, but wish they could.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:23 am 
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Relative to their comments, the discussion came around to the time when karaoke broke onto the scene and what happened to the attitude of live bands when they felt they were being pushed out by it.


Wasn't that about the time "The Monkees" appeared on the scene? One could argue they may have been some of the most well-paid karaoke singers around!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Search Google for live band karaoke, and you get 697,000 hits.

The House Of Blues Las Vegas did have live band karaoke, but dropped it.

Still, 124 karaoke shows in Vegas this last week. (I didn't make them all)

http://www.google.com/search?client=fir ... h&aq=f&oq=


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:22 pm 
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I have been a gigging musician all my life, I got into doing karaoke about 6 months or so ago. Without a doubt I prefer to play in a band if I'm playing with good musicians but there simply aren't enough places to do that here, especially if you want to do it as part of your living.
For the last 10 years or so I was playing in pubs just me with my guitar & my backing tracks.
This kind of live music is nothing like as exiting as playing in a band but I could gig 3-4 nights a week easily, but unlike with a proper band, people are not coming to see me (although in some placed they did), I was mostly turning up to a pub to entertain whoever is there so you just have to play all the usual standards. When you get idiots in a bar, you're kind of stuck with them all night, especially those who bug you to play something you don't know.
This is something I find particularly easier to deal with doing karaoke, I can just give them a book & a slip & say "here, find it & sing it!". I have to say, I wish I had thought of doing karaoke 10 years ago, it is definitely a heck of a lot more fun than what I was doing before. Not just easier for me, but the atmosphere and enthusiasm from the crowd is miles better and the place is always busier! Not sure if that means I'm good at running karaoke or my singing & playing sucked. :lol:

I don't think karaoke affects live bands so much. Mostly, the things that took away our gigs starting in the 1990s was the venues either turning into nightclubs or restaurants and the well known music bars replacing the mixture of original & cover bands with tribute bands.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Referable to my comment about places not being built for live entertainment anymore - at our band gig last night I was talking with the new owner (they've been open six weeks). He figures that casinos in the northwest had a LOT to do with the demise of live music. They can afford to pay BIG money for bands, they have gambling, and they often have very good restaurants; so, the small places that aren't backed by tribal monies (and often lax laws comparatively) can't afford to pay the live bands anymore...he gave an example - he used to book bands like Molly Hatchett and others of that ilk for $3500. He says now with the casinos willing to pay TEN TIMES THAT AMOUNT, of course that automatically eliminates his place

Additionally, ASCAP and BMI are really buckling down on bars, at least here, thereby eliminating any jobs for cover bands (if the place isn't willing to fork out for fees). Good for us original bands but the bulk of the musicians playing covers, trying to supplement their incomes with playing, have to go without gigs.

Glad to hear that even the most hard core of musicians are now accepting that karaoke has a place - of course, they still complain about the quality (or lack of it) - particularly by hosts that have no idea how to use a sound board, or have cheap equipment, but hey, I've been known to comment occasionally, too.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:09 pm 
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I have musicians and former bandmates stop in my karaoke show once in a while. Feelings are mixed. Some think it's OK and even sing a little. Some think it's the work of the devil.

But those who don't care for it often don't understand what it is and isn't. It is about having fun. It isn't about professional singing. Many musicians have this preconceived idea that if someone is on a stage with a mic they should be able to pull it off, or get off the stage.

As a singer what I like about karaoke is that I can sing the way I like to (full blast at the top of my range) because I'm only doing it at most four minutes or so an hour. I can't do that when I'm in a band and have any voice at all beyond the first set. That... and the consistency of the crowds. It's definitely more of an up and down thing when you are performing in a band.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Local bands could still be in the price range of some bars but it seems that alot of the stage, seating and dance floor space is being filled with pool tables these days. But even so, a small place might be able to afford a karaoke host but that same fee wouldn't be much for a band to divide up among 3 to 5 people. I have seen some singers use tracks to back themselves and do a combo live singing/playing backed by recorded tracks show and then they get to keep more of the money.

I hate to see people blame only the Tribes. I realize that now there are casino's where none were allowed before but if a casino in the Northwest could affect the prices charged by bands on the East Coast then wouldn't the non-tribal casinos in Nevada and Atlantic City already have had that same influence?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:05 pm 
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4-piece band: 400-500$. Karaoke DJ 150$. Do the math. Local bands often do not bring crowds with them. End up entertaining whoever happens to be there. Usually small places often times without space. 3-piece comes closer to approaching karaoke.

What I see around here is the successful places offering both bands and karaoke. Bands on weekends Karaoke weeknights.

Strictly band bars are much fewer and stictly karaoke bars area fewer. So its a mix of the two thats in the majority. Probly a 25-25-50 ratio. 7 night karaoke is fewer still. 7 night bands is even less than that.

Usually entertainment is Thursday-Saturday.

A limited number of 7-nighters.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Why is it always, band VS kj or dj. I'm in a band but have kj and dj at times and there are pros and cons to each venue, each can throw trashing comments at the other and it gets a little old.

All these involve music and entertaing people,and creating a fun atmosphere!

To bands that bash kj and kj that bash bands open your eyes and try to focuss on the big picture.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:52 pm 
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...which was precisely the point of my post - the original post was about an old retired musician who had come to the thought that it was GOOD to have karaoke and bands. I agree - I think it's great when places can afford to put on live music and still pay the bands a reasonable amount (unlike pay to play, where bands are expected to sell tickets to their shows). My point is not to bash bands or karaoke - I am heavily involved in both, and make a living off both. The point of my post was to simply bring up a point that I had not thought of relative to this situation - that often having karaoke at bars during the week aids in allowing for bands on the weekends.

My husband's band is an EXCELLENT original band that works more than most cover bands. (Swingcat can attest to the quality of their show) and we've been karaoke hosts since 1996 - so obviously there is a way to make both work.

I certainly don't intend to pit one against the other, but I think every little point we can come up with to intelligently defend the positive aspects of karaoke, the better. I was happy to hear this one coming from a retired musician.

My point about the casinos was based strictly on what this club owner told me - he is a major promoter who has been promoting for years and years (since '70s) and if anyone can discuss this issue, I feel he has as much credibility as one could expect to find.

Casinos in NW Washington still allow smoking, whereas there is a no smoking law that encumbers everyone else...that is one reason people will still flock to the tribals, but also one of the reasons nonsmokers simply don't. It is one reason they can afford to bring in the big name entertainment and oftentimes take a loss. (I've gone to shows at a local casino that had a nominal entrance fee which was tossed when their wasn't enough interest so we saw the show for nothing - the band was paid well over $20,000 for that night).

Not coming down on either side of these issues - strictly facts relative to the entertainment industry at least in our area - I certainly can't speak for other areas of the country.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:47 pm 
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The former band members I've met who have become karaoke hosts often have a different presentation. The host seems to sing much more during the show. And while they're often a much better singer than the average karaoke warbler, that sometimes works against the show actually intimidating marginal singers that they're "not good enough".

Band singers used to being in the spotlight also sometimes find it hard to relinquish the spotlight to those who come to sing karaoke.

I've always been a DJ/KJ/Emcee and know the show is never been about "me" - it's always about the guests and patrons...hyping them up and making them sound great. That's whether I'm hosting karaoke, doing interactive games or just spinning dance tunes.

My room used to have live bands 6 nights a week. A couple of months ago they cut back to 5 nights a week replacing it with another night of karaoke. It was not embraced by the bands...especially the one whose weekly gig was canceled.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:05 pm 
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DangerousDanKaraoke @ Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:47 pm wrote:
It was not embraced by the bands...especially the one whose weekly gig was canceled.

You think?
LOL
Around here, the musicians tend to turn up their noses at karaoke. But they are slowly coming around.
Some are coming to realize that it's more about having fun than being "good". I always try to emphasize that at my shows. When someone, no matter how bad, gets through a song and has a lot of fun doing it, I will say something along the lines of, "Now that's what Karaoke is all about. Look at the fun he had! Give him a big hand." or some such comment.
PS: I'd rather have the "bad" singers anyways. They tend not to act like divas and they are truly out for fun, not to be worshipped like some of the "better" singers I get.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:33 am 
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The fun of karaoke is that anyone can have a turn at being the band.

Other reasons that "name" bands might not be as obtainable as in the 60s and 70s is that the bar has been raised as to what people expect and it costs much more to put on such a show--fireworks, dancing girls, whatever. I used to see the likes of Hank Jr, Merle Haggard, Dolly Parton, Marty Robbins, or just local bands filled with former Nashville sidemen in clubs and small county fairs. Then "Urban Cowboy" hit and country became an even bigger business and people were expected to fill stadiums and demand salaries accordingly. It is said that the Beatles didn't even have monitors when they toured and now look at the type of sound equipment a band has to buy. You would have to have a large club to make it worth their investment..

On the other hand, I have loved going to hear folk type people at coffee houses and open mics so a person who has "it" can entertain with just a mic and a guitar.

Anyway, I think the OPs main point that the two can enhance each other is valid. Creating an appetite for music creates a market for all types.

Re casinos--I don't like them myself but the non-tribal casinos have been serving free drinks and cheap food and allowing smoking and hiring entertainment for decades before the Indians got into the business. That is why I didn't get how the Indians killed live music. Come to think of it, the local casinos around here pay their karaoke hosts $400 as opposed to the bars who pay $150. Will that kill karaoke in small bars? I don't mean this to sound hostile--just thinking out loud.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:10 am 
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Karen K @ Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:52 pm wrote:
...which was precisely the point of my post - the original post was about an old retired musician who had come to the thought that it was GOOD to have karaoke and bands. I agree - I think it's great when places can afford to put on live music and still pay the bands a reasonable amount (unlike pay to play, where bands are expected to sell tickets to their shows).


Sorry Karen I got sidetracked off topic yesterday. Anyway as you know I've been in bands far longer than in karaoke. And I don't think I agree with your musician's comment. In my experience, if an establishment makes more money on karaoke or DJ nights than band nights, the band nights disappear! The only exceptions (and I've known a lot of these) is where the owner is himself in a band, or has a son or spouse in one and they need a place to play.

What weeknight karaoke does provide sometimes is another source of income in the mix that maybe helps keep the doors open. But usually if weeknight karaoke is a moneymaker in a bar, weekend karaoke will be an even bigger moneymaker and that's what wins out if band nights aren't pulling their weight.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:17 am 
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DangerousDanKaraoke @ Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:47 pm wrote:
The former band members I've met who have become karaoke hosts often have a different presentation. The host seems to sing much more during the show.
Band singers used to being in the spotlight also sometimes find it hard to relinquish the spotlight to those who come to sing karaoke.


I sang just once last night, after 1:00 when the rotation collapsed to six. Many nights I don't sing at all.

I've been in bands all my life. It's really the KJ's approach to the job as to how much they will sing, not whether or not they've been in a band.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:36 pm 
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I used to sing in a band. I can't make the money I make doing karaoke - not even close. When I was in a band there were 5 of us that means splitting the pay check 5 ways. Now at the end of the night I walk away with all the pay. I'm never going to be the next Christina Aguilera, so show me the money. LMAO

It's funny when people who sing with a band are first introduced with doing karaoke. A lot of the times they have this superior attitude until they experience it. They realise it isn't as easy as it seems and there are lots of singers up there singing as well, if not better then them. A new respect blooms.

I've had this happen a few times when band member would stop in for a beer while karaoke was going on. Usually one of the patrons will recognize them from playing there and urge them to sing. I feel no competition from them and will always plug their band for them as long as they are one of the bars bands. I feel a whole new attitude from them after. That I'm better because i sing with a band attitude disappears.

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