Karaoke Forums

It is always interesting to me how statements on this forum turn into fodder for the grist mill and create all sorts of psychological standoffs.

Of COURSE you respect the owner...of COURSE if you want to keep the job a certain degree of conformity is required; but my point is, all of this is covered in the first 10 minutes of a conversation with the owner of a prospective hosting establishment. If you present yourself as a competent host with a sense of propriety and respect for their patrons, there shouldn't be any head bashing and teeth gnashing involved at all.

Perhaps I am making an assumption that a seasoned, experienced, and successful KJ already KNOWS all of this and doesn't go walking in expecting it to be 'my way or the highway.' That would be LUDICROUS! If you have a day job and are employed or even contracted by another, it is obvious who actually sets the ground rules. Imagine the chaos if that wasn't the case.

Well, ONCE AGAIN, I agree with you, Karen, 100%. That is what I was trying to point out. All of this stuff about "this is MY SHOW", and I tell the OWNER what I'm going to do, is REDICULOUS. If you don't like the rules, and you think you can tell the owner "what" and what you're "not" going to adhere to, you just may find yourself with a good "home" karaoke system.

Rosario

The reason I asked is because we are in the situation as stated by Mongo. We filled our books with a variety of music because we hoped to work in more than one place--we have Hannah Montana to Latin to a bit of everything. The place where we started has a Friday night host who caters to the 50's through 70s doo wop, country, rock that the regulars like to hear. We were also surprised when some of those same people on our Sat night started doing Godsmack and requesting we get in Nickelback, etc. Then we had a fellow come in with his own Pearl Jam discs and tell us he wasn't allowed to do them anywhere else. The bar owner hasn't said anything yet (other than the ocassional, "you can throw that disc away,") but I am wondering if it will come to that. On the other hand, his Sats have gone from 75 cents in the till to having lots of new people come in so maybe the crowds can blend or pick their night to come depending on style. Was just trying to get ideas in case a discussion on genre does come up. We also didn't want to be in the position of building up the business with new people at the expense of running off the regulars.

Oh--turning down the volume on the real rockers does seem to help the tolerance level somewhat.

Per Lonman, we have been trying to give extra service and give people what they want. I hand did our books in Excel (4,000 plus songs and counting) and put little codes (in the columns that don't go into the books) by lots of the songs to denote Holiday, Duet, PG, Gospel, Broadway, etc. I could easily code every song and sort into different books and may need to do that anyway because we might get a family restaurant booking. I was just balking at the printing but on the other hand, it could be a wise business investment to do so. Still thinking about it--don't like being the "censor," either.

Of course the owner has the right to establish the genre or format however I will not contract with them and have refused gigs during the consult.

A private party is a different matter and I can provide any theme desired.

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Karen is correct. As I stated in my first post I do discuss all of this with the owner in our first meeting. Things like what I normally do and don't do. I find out what the owners expectations are, etc. From that meeting the owner and I can't usually decide if we are a good fit for each other, and if I can be a benefit to their establishment. Or if we feel it just won't work, then life is good and we both move on, no harm no foul.
While I like to think this idea works, and I will add the majority of times it does, I have had several venues that I turned down, because I didn't feel it would be a good fit, however I still get calls from them for private parties, and the occasional fill in gig. This didn't work out so well at my last gig with a difficult bar owner, and I did have two such meetings with him, and brought up many of the points previously discussed here.

I may start a new thread where all of us can contribute points that we feel should be discussed in initial meetings with owners. What do you think.

Edit to my last post, when I was using the word "you", I should have been using "the kj". I just wanted to clarify that, as my comments were not referring to Karen, and anyone reading it might have thought it was directed at her. Sorry for the possible misunderstanding.

Rosario

I guess I'll try to respond to these points directly.

1. In the case of the Elks Lodge we absolutely had a sit-down prior to my first night discussing what the parameters of the job were going to be. Now they hired me because of my performance in my home room, so I knew they wanted to shake things up somewhat. I just needed to know how much.

2. No the "old cowboys" weren't too happy with things at first but I think they are coming around. I was told up front to basically ignore them. And I followed orders! On NYE... by far the busiest night I've had in there, I took the slips as they came up. Beyonce right after Buck Owens, Gwen Stafani immediately followed Glen Campbell. Everyone had a great time with it! It was quite a mix and for me a lot of fun.

People were dancing to everything. But you know... it was NYE. Everyone wants to party on NYE.

I think it all comes down to the very first contact with whom you are working for. You must ask them if they have restrictions on what you can play. If they have certain restrictions and you don't like them you can always say "Nice meeting you but I can not do that."

It's just like any other job, if you went to an interview and the perspective boss told you that you had to wear green pants and an orange shirt to work and you had to buy them all yourself most of us would turn down the job (I would I hate green and orange).

Same thing when it comes to karaoke what you can and can not do if you want the job.

If they want to change the rules later on that's when you have the discussion of why it must change or your gone.

Same comes to fact that if you started at a nice easy going bar with lots of good singers and all of a sudden it turned into a rowdy biker (not picking on bikers cuz I am one) that only wanted to get drunk sing outlandish songs and mess with you and your equipment it would be up to you to ask the management to either get a handle on it or your gone.


HOLY SHADES OF ROADHOUSE

Lone Wolf

Bill
That's the way I run my shows. Always a mixed bag of genres. One of the things I always say during my intro into the night is "We have all six kinds of music, Rock and Roll, Country and Western, Hip and Hop"
Some may not agree, but I always felt that keeping it mixed would keep the majority in the bar. If you don't like rap for example (which most of it I don't) wait about 4 minutes and things will change. I have always set my rotation by persons name not song type, for example I have been to shows that will do sets of rock, then sets of country and so on, most of the time I don't pay attention to song type until I have to cue it up, other than not to put two slow songs together, etc.

Like most of us I did break up long strings of ballads when they occurred with judicious insertions ScottyMo but that was about it. I didn't make any distinctions between musical styles by rearranging the order that night.

Sometimes I will in my home room based on what I think will work best for the room as a whole. But not often, and very carefully.

It depends on how reasonable the request by the owner is. If they are dictating how I run a show from music to rotation I won't take the job. I turned down a good paying gig because not only did they want to dictate type of music, but music sets and rotation. When I have an owner or manager tell me straight out that their friends get special treatment I'm out of there.

The owner I have now has pulled some doosies with me like the no more Spanish songs while people were singing them (long story). I keep my Spanish songs in a seperate book, so I just don't put them out any more. The more Americanized songs like La Bamba and Feliz Navidad are in my books though.

Another time he decided he didn't like songs like "Bodies" and "Walk" because of the screaming/sing style of them. Of course this happened after he heard them sung. I told him if he didn't want the person to sing them anymore he'd have to tell them. I tried to explain to him they were singing the songs like they were meant to be sung and they are doing well at it. He talked to the singer and they came to an agreement he'd only do them on certain occasions with the owners permission. The funny part is the owner eventially caved to letting people do these songs because they were popular and the patrons went nuts with applause after they were sung. He is out of touch with todays music and has learned to trust my judgement more.

Some censoring is obvious like no swear songs at a childs party. Discussing expectations with the people that are hiring you ahead of time is a must. If I think it is over the top I'll pass on the job. I've never had a bar gig tell me they didn't want songs with particular words in them, but if I did I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as they didn't interfer with how I run my show.

I've never had a bar gig tell me only certain genres can be played either. I don't know that I'd take the gig if they told me only country songs can be sung. That would mean a lot of work on my part to make new books. But if I had a theme party and they only wanted country I'd just have to enforce it with my old books with the hirees understanding my books would be what they are and I'd have to make a lot of announcements, so people could understand this.

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I'm having some difficulty seeing what the problem is. What we're talking about here is business. I've always figured that when someone is paying me to do a job he has the right to tell me how he wants it done. Period.

I've seen some talk here about professionalism. It's just my opinion but it seems to me that being a professional has at least as much to do with attitude as it does with having a skill. Frankly, the attitude that as professionals it's beneath us to pay attention to the guy who's paying the bills doesn't sound very professional. We're not talking about an ethical or moral question. This is business.

I've been a professional musician for 42 years. For at least 41 of those years I've known better than to book my classic rock & roll band into a die-hard country & western bar. It would be a bad idea for everyone.

As a professional I know that neither my band nor my karaoke business are an ideal fit for every venue. If I want to play a venue badly enough and what I do isn't a good git, I know that I need to modify what I'm doing. The venue is certainly not going to change to meet my particular wants/needs.

Larry

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But I am sure that you wouldn't do something that you felt damaged your professional standing. If you have a reputation as a gospel musician, you don't want to ruin that by doing raunchy profane shows. I feel that is the same with karaoke -- I have a reputation that I have to live with long after the gig will be over. And karaoke is a small world in a lot of ways. If you have a reputation of having a fair rotation, you don't want to damage that by following some bizarre rules that favor certain people. In my case, I won't be associated with a karaoke contest.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The other side of it being a business is, if the business is slowing and broadening your focus group allows it to grow, then do you want that new business? Also, the lines between country and rock are pretty blurred these days and Lynyrd Skynyrd isn't a heck of a lot softer than Nickelback, except they seem to have more melody.

I wouldn't defy a business owner if he/she wanted to present a certain product and I had agreed to it. I would do my best to think of marketing/song selection strategies for that group. But sometimes the regular crowds at karaoke can naturally shift as trends and demographics change--eg. line dancing took over from disco, commuters to the city start outnumbering the cowboys, etc. You might not be changing your show on purpse but it changes because of the types of songs people start putting in. And even if you leave them out of your books, they buy them on their own. So do you try to stop it or work on creating an atmosphere where different generes are welcome? I'm sort of in the "adapt or die" group.

There are a lot of good ideas and different experiences on this forum. I like hearing all the different sides.

Nope. I own my business, they own theirs. I don't tell them how much liquor to serve, or what to charge, and they don't choose songs or have any say in my rotation. This is ALWAYS spelled out before I start a new venue. If they don't agree, I work elswhere. However, they always have. I stay out of their business, they stay out of mine. Only the singers have the right to request songs.

Lon, this doesn't mean that I'm not venue appropriate. For instance, I choose NEVER to allow music that contains ethnic, racial, or religeous slurs- EVER- simply because I don't find them appropriate ANYWHERE. I can do that because it's MY business. Other songs containing what might be considered off color language or sexual themes might be allowed, depending on the venue.

When I used to work in a biker bar, pretty much any of that went. When I moved upscale, most of it did not, except for the occasional late night.

The bottom line is that I've yet to run into a problem with offensive songs. I just excersie good judgement.

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" Disc based and loving it..."

I thinks that might be half right. Though I'm being paid, I am not an employee. They are paying Joe Chartreuse Karaoke & Entertainment to run a successful show- period.

On the other hand, part of that job is exercising prudent judgement, and not offending customers. In other words, though I dont think the owners can dictate, I DO think they have the right to expect professional standards. In the end, there really is no conflict. I am merely substituting my judgement for theirs. Since I know more about the music than they do, they are getting a better deal.

It is similar to your judgement in regard to a classic rock band in a country bar...You use your best judgement. Since you've been at it for 42 years, I assume that your judgement is good enough. So's mine.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

To each their own. A bar owner doesn't want certain types of music played in THEIR own place, it is not my place to tell them no I will play what I want because it's my business.
Say you are hired to paint a house, the person hiring you is going to tell how they want it painted, you don't just say no it's my way or I don't work. Yes I know different scenerios, but principle is the same. My club pays me well, all they ask is no profanity or swearing in the music or on the mics. I comply. I still run my show the way I would minus those factors. Guess it's working, been at the same places successfully for 15 years 7 nights - not very common length of time in the average karaoke venue.
Could it be the reason why I have never been replaced is because other companies feel it's their show & will run it how they deem including music the bar does not want? I never thought of that before......

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In my circumstance the owner in the past has taken it upon himself to ask no Spanish songs be sung while they were always allowed previously. He singled out the singers while they were there singing just because they were Mexican. Now we are talking racism. It all depends on the circumstances and if what the owner is asking is reasonable. In this case the patrons rebelled and he learned a valuable lesson. I am respecting his decision to no longer put out the Spanish song book. I think that is reasonable, but to single people out as they are singing is wrong.

The other instance with the screaming/sing type songs he directed it towards one patron saying he can't sing those songs anymore. It isn't right to pick and choose who can sing what. It is his bar and I respect that, so I told him he would have to tell the patron himself. They worked it out and like I said after he realised these songs were liked by the majority, he decided to allow them.

I guess the bottom line for me is if the request is reasonable and decided on ahead of time I will comply.

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The problem with karaoke is that song choice is by the singer....

Sure in some circumstances it is necessary to have profanity limits, but other than that the KJ does not choose (except for rare suggestions or the songs they sing) what is sung.

Now the bar tender/owner may decide to tell a subset of their patrons that they are not welcome but that is really bad business practice.

A bar can set the type of bar that they want to be by what kind of DJ music or live bands they play and that to some extent that flavor transfers to the song choices on karaoke nights.

A bar that tells you to "filter" the songs that are sung is either a bad businessman because they are getting rid of patrons who would feel less welcome or does not understand how karaoke works.

My regular show is very light on country music, but this week we had a VERY good country singer and that got good applause and the bartender/owner commented on how good he was. The owner is not much into country, but for occasional variety he enjoyed it.

As for banning Spanish music, probably the owner could be open to a lawsuit but i do not know for sure. Sure if you dont have any Spanish language songs in your songlist, you are safe but if he either actively orders them removed or prevents them from being sung that is potential big legal trouble.

I've been told what types of music to play... and what not types.

What I usually say is something along the lines of this:



Now I PERSONALLY don't like much of hip hop or the newer R&B (Beyonce, Kayne, etc.), but as long as it's not gangsta crappola, I DO buy the newer music. (For example, when Top Hits Monthly released it's six and four pack stuff, I bought it, but would NOT list the URBAN discs. The tracks aren't even on my hard drive!!)

If a venue says no profanity, I grudgingly give that to them, despite my feelings if it's in the song, to me it's fair game.

But what I won't sign up for is an ALL country or ALL rock show. I'll openly tell the venue owner/manager to find someone else to do the show. My own personal standards. I'm also no DJ... I've ran a few dj only shows, and know my limitations.

I buy what I want. I was criticised for not having enough Country listed a few years ago, and quickly made up for that. Why? The people that attended my shows didn't care at the time, but I started to get a larger following that did like that.

I also have no Spanish, Greek, Italian or whatever karaoke. If I ever get that kind of audience, then I'll buy that stuff...