Karaoke Forums

Why don't you guys just recommend POWERED speakers to newer non experienced guys? Why even get into a long discussion like this when they dont have the knowledge or experience that you do? MNE, just go find a good pair of powered speakers, as to the brand, these guys can tell you that and their tech expertise is phenominal. But save yourself some guessing and go powered.

I would think that a pair of 12"s would be fine for home use and even smaller (indoor) gig venues. 15"s if you might seriously start PT working too. As for right now as you said, anyone think one speaker would work for home, with the option of adding the other later? Also, I don't think you need a sub or monitor at home either.

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Apparently it is completely settled in your mind that powered speakers are best. It isn't in everyone's mind.

Personally, if I started out from scratch today, knowing what I know, and wanted a system that performed and was well-matched, I would get a Yamaha 5014 or 5016CF powered mixer and a pair of S115V speakers. It sounds great, has everything, is very portable, and is easy to set up with only one power cord.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

No that is incorrect. I never said they were best, but maybe best for a new user who doesnt have your technical knowledge and ear. That way, they dont have to worry about matching an amp or destroying their hardware from improper use (all the while, not knowing they are doing so).

Mcky, you just stated, "knowing what you know now". Some, if not most, don't know what you know and therefore the more that a system is dummy proof and condensed the better. How else would some of these companies sell these home systems that none of yall recommend. They sell those all in ones left and right because of 1) ease of use and 2) pricepoint. They wouldn't make em if they weren't making profit. Now, before anyone gets on me, I am not recommending those but merely stating that ease of use and lack of abuse is important to a newer user (ie. speaker/amp in one package). Plugging in multiple power cords is the least of a NEW USER's problems.

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Actually powered speakers aren't necessarily the answer for even new users. Once a system is matched up & running, there is no difference & greater room for expansion with a non-powered speaker system.

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You also have the knobs on the powered speakers to set. Having a user who I help who uses powered speakers, that is as much of a problem as anything. Plus, they make dumb decisions about where to site the speakers simply based on how long the power cord is.

For a new user, a well-matched system is best. I personally like the powered-mixer and speaker approach for most. The Soundcraft, Peavey, or best-bet Yamaha along with appropriate speakers are as easy to set up and operate as anything.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

EASE OF USE!

Look MNE, these guys are far more technically experienced than I. I've been running a show for 10 years or so but I'm new also, as far as tech goes. This is the last thing I'll say on the subject and I'll let the more experienced guys talk. If I were new to understanding this stuff like you, which I am, I'd go powered to save yourself initial problems matching your equipment and save yourself some blown equipment on the way from improper settings while learning.

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I received an email from Yamaha tech support today. In a nut shell they informed me that an EMX512Sc will drive a pair of S115V's to within 2db of their maximum loudness before clipping. I'm thinking that's pretty loud, probably about three times louder than you would ever need for any Karaoke I've ever been to. I will quote one section of the email
" ---a 10 watt amp is safe til it clips --a 1000w amp is safe til it clips--matching the amp and speakers doesn't automatically prevent damage ---the exact matching of the speaker to amp is not as important a proper operation of the power amp ."

Anyway, that was the point I was trying to make in the first place, matching an amp and a speaker is ideal, but not necessarily essential for safe operation. If you know what you need to accomplish, with a little homework, you will know what tools are required. I will also say once again, If I know I need 1000 watts to accomplish my goal, the odds are I will buy a 2000 watt amp, just because tomorrow is another day and I love power. Peace.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I'd have to say, I'm glad this whole conversation took place because I learned a few more things. A newbie (like me still for a while) can make their own mind up after listening to different alternatives and also learn the lingo and some "don't do this" things.

I am competing for the title of stupidest person on the forum and I wouldn't presume to argue with Yamaha but tell me this: Even if it is safe to use the powered mixer and still get ample sound VOLUME, is there a difference in sound QUALITY? In other words, does an amp with the power matched to the speakers give you better sound than the powered mixer would?

I only ask because we use a Yamaha MG124cx mixer with P5000s amp to power the in-place bar's speakers that are Fanes but bar lore tells us have Peavey Black Widow innards. The hosts on another night use a Behringer Euro powered mixer on the same speakers. They have had years of experience at karaoke and band mixing. My boyfriend subbed as a karaoke host for a friend a few years back and has read the manuals--that's his experience. From day one we have been told how much better our sound is and we know it's not due to our experience so we presumed it was the power in our amp. Or is it a Yamaha vs. Behringer issue? Just trying to understand this ....

Not enough power will result in lower sound quality. This is just in general not even necessarily a perfect speaker match. It's all about headroom, take say a 250 watt per channel amp, in a live situation especially - if you have to turn it up, which most likely you would, once you get past it's rated power is when the distortion starts, you also seemingly start to lose frequencies in the bottom end, making the high end more pronounced (tinny). Take the same situation with say 1000 watt amp, you have more room to play with before the distortion starts, the sound will be fuller & cleaner at the same volume that the other amp starts to distort.

Your amp pushes about 500 watts per side into 8 ohms, not sure of the Behringer model, so i'll go by their most powerful mixer today only pushes 215 watts into 8 ohms so right off the bat you are doubling the power effectively also raising the perceived volume by 1-2db but it's also going to be a cleaner - fuller sound at the same volume, which is exactly what the customers are hearing - not to mention the Yamaha mixer/amp combo is just a much better system to begin with overall.

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That's part of the problem. You also have to hear it. I'm sure amp A may sound different than amp B with speaker C. You have frequency versus harmonic distortion versus power, all variations that may be different with each model of amp when applied to a given speaker load due to the design. Total harmonic distortion is a qualitative measurement that affects the sound quality. The power matching also comes into play since the loading effects are based on how hard the amp's working. Usually powered mixers are designed to be used with a specific speaker but you never can tell 100% how it will sound with another one.

Don't sonic maximizers or active crossovers need to be used when using passives?

Aren't forums great!

I will make one last attempt to explain my position. I will use the Yamaha S115V speaker and the Yamaha EMX512SC for reference.The RMS rating of the S115V is 500 Watts, the output of the EMX512SC is is 350 watts. Not a perfect match, but for most applications certainly an acceptable match, and here's why. At full rated power, being driven by 500 watts RMS the S115V is capable of 129db. This next information comes from tech support at Yamaha, the same speaker driven by 350 watts RMS (EMX512SC) will achieve 127db, that's right just 2db less. From the data I can find, the average karaoke performance runs roughly 95db, and I think this figure may be a little high from what I've personally experienced. In any case, as you can see this is far below the volume of the 127db that the 350 watts will supply. That is why I say that you only run into a problem if you actually need more power than an amplifier can supply before clipping. Obviously 350 watts is more than ample to easily run a Karaoke show pushing S115V speakers.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Actually it is probably a combination of both. First off, it sounds like the guy using the Behringer gear is having to push his power into distortion to try and achieve a suitable volume for the venue. Secondly I suspect that Yamaha uses better components in their equipment. I'm pretty sure the Behringer is no match for your MG124cx and P5000S combination. I used to own a Behringer Xenyx 1832fx mixer and was totally unimpressed. Pretty much everything about it I found lacking, it's pre amps, equalization and fx section were all marginal at best. I replaced it with a Yamaha MG12/4fx hooked to the same P5000S amp you use on my monitors, and noticed a huge difference in clarity and control. You have the right idea, you don't have to buy the best, but try and stay away from entry level gear. You do get what you pay for.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Thanks to all. I am actually a Veterinary Technician for the "day job" and only started reading about all this stuff because it is my money buyng our equipment. I still cringe at the price difference between going with the powered Yamaha mixer and buying the amp/mixer combo but it seemed like we would have more options that way before having to expand (the Lonman influence). Plus, in retrospect, it was the right decision to not buy powered speakers. We have yet to use our Clubs because we have been hooking into the bar's in-place passives. If we had gone powered speaker, we would be up a creek. So that is another thing to consider in the Passive vs. Powered decision. It seems we have more options in the types of systems we can accomodate.

That 350w mixer/amp may get overheated if you try to push 127dB @ 350 W. Make sure it has thermal protection. 2dB of SPL can be a lot of power for amp especially at lower frequencies. From what I've heard of Yamaha amps and the specs it can be pretty harsh. At 95dB maybe it wouldn't hurt. But I would be cautious.

Over heating? We are talking @ eight ohms stereo here, not a four ohm bridged load. That head could yawn it's way through a Karaoke show. I'm pretty sure a few people on here use the EMX512SC and will attest to it's performance and reliability. I've been using Yamaha amplifiers for many years and have had no failures. I trust the boys at Yamaha, you have to remember they were in the pro sound business long before Behringer or Mackie got into the marketing business.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

The EMX512 yawns at a 4 ohm load, never a hint of warmth.
You can run (4) 8 ohm speakers, that's (2) 4 ohm loads with
no problems, no heat, no nothing. The most amazing thing
about it? I can lift it with two fingers, easily. It's not perfect,
I'll be going to a mixer and separate amp soon, but for a mobile,
the EMX512 has a lot to offer. I'm so accustomed to using knobs
I prefer them now.