Karaoke Forums

Karyoke, I am amazed that you keep bringing up that you're an old man and a veteran and because of those things that you believe you are magically exempt from the law of the land. Using that logic, , Al Unser, Mario Andretti (Race car drivers), and myself (retired Military Policeman with High pursuit driving) should be exempt from speeding laws.

If you're against something, protest, go to your politicians, get the laws changed or made clear, etc. But going on and making outragous statements of violence against any law enforcement agency may raid your self, makes you sound like the other crazies out there like the Unabomber, Timothy McVey and other who think they've been wronged by the government.

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I admit I groaned when I read about not needing the secular laws... Ollie, you DO live in a country of laws that govern us ALL, from newborn to the infirmed. It is up to obey the laws, and if you feel a law is unjust, then tackle it.

But making outrageous statements like that label you as a crackpot, or worse yet, just an old man that people learn to dismiss as senile or just a joke.

I respect what you did for our country, and further respect your stance as a karaoke company host that is a pioneer in this industry.

But you have a bad habit of flying off at the handle (as I do!), so if someone accuses you of a crime, deal with it like the patriot you are. Debate them, show them the proof you're not. And dismiss them as you were done.

Clearly... logicially, and with finality!

Provide me a .gov link that has a copyright amendment that specifically states and clarifies what law we are breaking with digital karaoke Then show where a karaoke host was arrested then prosecuted. Then I can contact the proper reps and fight the law as you suggest. Without these I only appear as a fool. Then we can come up with viable solutions and the manus can make decisions concerning marketing. However most went into a sue happy mode and slowed our progress and establishment of a viable business. It is pure unadulterated greed and you are worried about what some slob living off the crumbs is legal? Sorry but I dont share your sentiment.

I did not threaten any law enforcement agency unless you think that RIAA has any authority whatsoever.

Just laws are written for public protection then tried in court and proven then modified for improvement. Some laws now are passed only for a source of revenue or to give corps more control which has put small farmers and other small business owners out in the cold.

If indeed the law was clear and enforced a national media story would kill the karaoke business. You seem to think I get radical. When somebody states the RIAA can come in and bust you or question your legality that is very radical to me.

Yes I am a rebel. I will fight for any poor working man or woman that is trying to earn a living. The present government or corps have lost my trust. There was a time when uncle sam had to listen to citizens. Now the citizens must answer to him.Does that not alarm you? Most of our reps are millionaire attorneys. What power or recourse do we have? This great nation is over regulated with the highest per capita prison population in history. It has been bankrupted so many times it will take generations to pay the debts if indeed wev are still a nation.

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Karyoker, you made threats period whether or not it's against law enforcement. No "karaoke" isn't expressly used in the Copyright Act, but copyrighted works is. It's the same thing. You're looking for semantics, it's not going to work.

Like I said before I highly doubt there is one KJ out there who would spend vast amounts of money to fight this and very seriously doubt that a lawyer would do it pro bono (free). Under the Act you can be served a Cease and Desist Order prior to being arrested. If the accused obeys the order then proceedings are dropped. So the chances of you riding in on your white horse is slim to none.

How are you going to look like a fool by going to a politician and say "listen I'm a KJ and I would like the law changed or clarified by saying we can copy our libraries to protect our investments, as long as we do shows on a one to one basis and not to multirig or sell copies".?

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Tim let me buy you one of your beers. I have written state and congressional reps. They act impervious or treat the subject as trivial. They do not understand the laws and respond with vague statements just like attornies.

I keep track on this site and from time to time email my reps.

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As I stated before, in another thread, there is no law regarding format shifting for karaoke, ergo, it's legal, at least here in Canada. A cease and desist LETTER may be sent but can be quite safely ignored, as they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on until a law is enacted. What would the format shifter be charged with? Ignoring a letter? As far as I know there's no law against that.
There's simply no law regarding karaoke format shifting in Canada, and until there is, there's nothing criminal about it.
From my previous post from another thread that you chose not to respond to:

Here's a great example of just this concept: I sit on my front porch in the afternoon whistling quietly. It's perfectly legal. How do I know this? Because there's no law saying it isn't! What would you charge me with?
By your standards, Timberlea, of writing down what we're allowed to do, rather than what REALLY happens (writing down what we're NOT allowed to do), our criminal code would be amazingly huge and simply not practical. We would be left guessing all day long about what's legal and what's not because it's not possible to write it all down using your method. That's simply not how the law works.
Again, I challenge you to show me the law that says it's illegal.
Never mind, I'll cut to the chase. You won't do it because you CAN'T. It doesn't exist.

If you want to spends days which I have trying to figure out the supreme courts progress on this issue be my guest. EFF

If you are concerned with privacy issues or citizens rights I encourage you to join..

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If you have any concept of Supreme Court proceedings you would realize that prosecution of a karaoke host due to the fact that it would require extensive preliminary investigations which would cost millions.Then it would take years to come to a verdict (more millions).

This would be initiated by a federal agency such as the FBI. With the world situation as it is do you think they will worry about an old fart with a few illegal songs? I have thousands of dollars invested and I paid my dues long ago.I still am purchasing new music as requested., So I have a few illegal songs. I did not blatantly redistribute or try to cheat anybody.

I am being very real and honest. I hide from nobody and if you want my phone number I will supply that also and talk to you personally. If there is anybody here that can claim total innocence here and have not broken any law in the last month step forward. I have dealt with this mania against computer karaoke for over 4 years and frankly I am getting tired of it. If you havnt cleaned your optics in your player in the last month I can hook up my laptop with internal sound and there will be a vast increase in quality. I know because I have done it.

These ramblings are not about ego or I told you so.. They are an effort to improve and update a fragile industry made fragile by corporate greed and dog eat dog attitudes of some hosts. If my language or methods of presentation offends you then so be it. I can show my emotions with control and a sense of fairness and eventually humor. Believe me I am on your side whether you use discs or digital.

If you can comprehend these ramblings then mission accomplished. If not then OH WELL!!

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Diafel, I once again direct you to AVLA. DJs may format shift, after paying fees. KJs cannot due to the sync rights part of a CDG. I can't be much clearer than that.

Karyoker, if someone decided to launch an investigation and lay charges, the actual cost of the case would not be much in the scheme of things. And yes I know intimately about investigations. The court case may be expensive (depending on how long the trial is. As for appeals, that would depend on if they are granted, due to errors in law etc. If it ever got to the point of the Supreme Court (either Canada or US), it would be up to the court whether they wanted to hear it or not.

As i've said earlier I personally do not care if one format shifts or not. I totally agree that KJs are so far down the list in the realm of enforcement that I doubt anyone would go to a show for the purpose of prosecution, but then one never knows.

Like I said if you're going to give information, make sure it is accurate, whether you agree with it or not.

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Sorry, but I'm going to use your own words against you here.
WHERE does it state that Karaoke cannot be format-shifted?
As you yourself stated, AVLA does not apply. Then WHAT does?
In Canada, until the law is written against it, it's perfectly legal.
THAT, my friend, is accurate!

If you follow current events then you would realize the tenth district court determined that karaoke graphics are not included in visual or video works and the sync copyright laws do not apply or at the very least have not been determined. I would suggest you get your facts right and quit spreading rumors.

link

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Diafel, once again the word "karaoke" does not have to be spelled out, the words "audio", "visual", and "recording" covers it. Just like in any Motor Vehicle Act the word "vehicle" covers bicycles, automobiles, vans, semis, snowmobiles, etc. Unless a certain vehicle is spelled out as being exempt or cited as being in effect to a certain part of the legislation, then the legislation applies to all.

AVLA states if you pay your fees audio may be format shifted, CDGs (karaoke music with graphics) cannot as it violates the Copyright Act. It is expressly mention by AVLA.

Karayoker that is not even close to a final decision. It is part of a continuing pretrial conference which only is in regards to karaoke companies paying synch fees to place the words on the screen. So far it looks good for the manufactures.

It has nothing to do with whether a business (read karaoke company or host) can format shift their karaoke libraries.


Diafel the 10th District in case you want to cite it has no jurisdiction in Canada.

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You keep quoting AVLA. IT DOESN'T APPLY HERE!
Sorry, but it DOES need to be spelled out specifically.
I'm well versed in law and I will no longer argue with you about it.
You state that it mentions karaoke, but you repeatedly refuse to mention where and fail to prove your sweeping statement about it. Also, the very reason it isn't mentioned is because there is some argument, much like the states, as to what constitutes "audio-visual" and whether it actually applies to karaoke. It's not been properly defined in law and therefore I stand by my previous posts regarding the issue.


I'm no idiot and know very well that US law carries no weight here. I'm not sure why you would make such a statement, unless it was to try to insult my intelligence.

Diafel, live in whatever world you want to. I have dealt with many people who thought they knew what the law was. I have explain the word "karaoke does not need to be mentioned specifically in the legislation and cited an example using the Motor Vihicle Act.

AVLA acts in a similar fashion as SOCAN. SOCAN like ASCAP in the US is responsible to collect fee for the public playing of music, film, etc. AVLA is responsible to collect fees for the copying or format shifting of music etc for commercial use. On the AVLA site and you can even send them an e-mail, they clearly state that karaoke ie CDGs are not covered.

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Um, hold it. Clarification here. If you mean by "copying our libraries to protect our investments" backups- perfectly legal and always has been. Same for software and movies that we purchase. Just not legal to distribute or, in the case of karaoke, use at multiple sites. Just clarifying....

On the other hand, if you changed media ( i.e. ripped discs), best to have the originals safe and sound someplace..Like I posted earlier, tough to prove licensed ownership of MP3s or WAVs.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

With all due respect and as a professional any further discussion regarding legalities will be forwarded by a legal writ from my attorneys' firm. Here and forthwith get out of my face and off of my back and give me the courtesy of offering legal advice via formal channels with legal writs from your attorney. Any further accusations or advice will result in litigation. Your legal advice on this forum is at best formulated by rumors, personal opinions, and are yet to be proven in a court of law.

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did you just say "get off my face"?

Regardless of the mudslinging, the reality all can agree on is.... that piracy does not help our industry nor any industry in wanting to continue to produce new tracks for us the kj's or etc. that is what we all can agree on. P>S> Cheers

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