Karaoke Forums

Depends on who is in the bar. If there were three singers, and one or two non-singers, I'd just keep rotating- they can sing as long as the bar stays open.

However, if there was a decent crowd, but only three singers, I would say throw in a filler track between rounds and the host stays in the rotation. Why? because in general, the crowd doesn't want to hear the same 3 people over and over again, and if the non-singing crowd makes up the majority of the customers it's not a good idea to alienate them.

Though as a host MY sentiment is with the singers, my business is still being supported by the venue, who is making the money off of the non-singers in that situation.

Of course, if I was in that situation, I'd need to re-evaluate my work.

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I would also like to add that it depends totally on the quality of the singers for me - if I've got a caterwhaler (SP?) and an off-key singer, you bet I'll stay in the rotation, and I'll play the occasional filler. Sadly this happens - there are singers who are NOT the best singers who show up at every show, every week, and put in slips. The last thing I want to do is alienate the nonsingers so I will ask them if there is something they wish to hear (I carry a very well stocked music laptop). Then I ask if there is something I can sing that they'd like to hear ... I would never ask the 'not-so-good' singers not to sing; nor do I make fun of them, but I would also not run people out of a bar on karaoke night.

I also will make an attempt if there are nonsinging regulars in the room to get them to come up and sing - "See? There's nobody here ... It's the perfect time for you to try such-and-such."

It is very surprising to me that when trying to build up a good karaoke show, a KJ would be more concerned with alienating the non-singers instead of the singers. As soon as I hear filler music, as a singer, I feel that the KJ doesn't want to hear me or any of the other singers sing as often as possible. I wouldn't go back to that type of karaoke show again and I would recommend that others would also avoid it. I'd rather spend my discretionary income on a karaoke show that actually catered to the singers and not the listeners. The listeners are typically regulars that would be at that particular venue anyway. If the 3 or 4 or 5 singers that you are lucky enough to have at the beginnning decide to go elsewhere the following weeks, you will have ZERO singers and NO GIG after a couple of weeks. I take filler music as an insult to me and every other person who got in their car to come to SING at a KARAOKE SHOW. I might not walk oout immediately, especially if friends are there, but I wouldn't make any plans to go back. Let's break down a 5 hour show with only 5 people that are singing. Each of the 5 singers would get to sing 3 songs per hour based on the average 4 minutes per song. That extrapolates to each singer singing 15 songs in a 5 hour show. As a singer, that is a fun night out that makes up for some of those nights where the rotation is so long that you are lucky to get to sing twice for the entire night. Now throw in two filler songs between every rotation and you are adding 6 songs per hour to the rotation which means each singer loses a turn every hour. That means each singer will sing 10 songs instead of 15 songs during the 5 hour show. It also means that the KJ will be spinning close to 30 filler songs during the entire show. THANKS BUT NO THANKS! If the KJ thinks that making me wait longer to get up on stage will get me to stay longer and spend more money while I'm waiting; he may be right for that particular evening but he or she will lose any future business from me and will get a negative review from me when anyone asks me about his or her particular show. A KARAOKE SHOW is NOTHING without SINGERS. Will the venue owner still employ you as a DJ after you have chased away the few singers you have by playing filler music? I hope so for your sake.

but by the same token, Bruce, I've had singers leave if the rotation is too small! Many aren't the serious singers like you are, and only have a handful of songs. By the time an hour or two is gone, they're DONE!

ONE filler song in such conditions would be when I am running around the bar, talking to the singers, asking them where they're from, what kinds of music they like, any new songs they'd like to try... cause in a night like that, hey, it's great to try new songs.... no worries about embarrassing yourself by trying a song you wanted to try and not getting it done just right.

And as singers join up, then not only would I drop out of the rotation, but so too would the filler... but I'd be wanting to entertain the whole bar, since ONLY three singers can't do that!

BruceFanForLife said:

Whoa there fella!

It is my opinion that this is a case of the confusion that (from a KJ's point of view) that "karaoke in the clubs is about singing." It is not, it's about making money and if you only have (even) 5 singers in your rotation, you will be doomed as far as the gig is concerned eventually anyway.

Yes, "That extrapolates to each singer singing 15 songs in a 5 hour show. As a singer, that is a fun night out ..."

I'm sure it does, but now let's look at it from the economic point of view:

Club pays $150/night ($30/hour) for a 5 hour show.

Each singer basically sings for a total of an entire hour... 5 singers, 5 hours....

That means the club has spent $30 on each singer to hear them sing....

Does each of these singers have MORE than a $30 tab? Because even if it's exactly $30 each, the club is still losing money and eventually the KJ will be out the door.

To those that argue that $30 tab each is a breakeven point: It is not and here's why;
(1) KJ gets $150/night
(2) each singer has a $30 tab and tips nicely
(3) Server delivers orders of drinks and food and keeps the tips
(4) Club gets $150
(5) Club hands $150 to KJ
(6) Nothing left for club, nothing to buy beer or food to sell to patrons, nothing to pay electric bill, insurance, cleaning, other staff etc.
(7) Club makes virtually nothing off 5 singers singing 15 songs per night... not a "fun night" for the club.

wait a minute, did the host walk out too?......

It all depends on the owner of the business....you as a KJ...will run the show the way he/she says, or hit the road. Of course, if the owner leaves it entirely up to the KJ, that's a different story.
Of course, like many of you, I never run out of songs to sing.... , and if there are only a few singers, yes I expect many turns. Now if the host wants to throw in a filler song, that takes one spot in a short rotation, I don't mind, but if he throws one in between each singer(unless there is only one singer)......I am not amused. My vanity is not to the point, where I would consider singing song after song, if I was the only singer, though I have done so, as a paid preformer, many moons ago...

Did I say MORE concerned? No, because of course those singers are going to sing in spite of their "lack of talent." As far as the REGULARS (nonsingers) and attempting NOT TO ALIENATE THEM (not TO CATER TO THEM), those are the ones who come there every night and pay for drinks and often food, and who provide that important element OF BODIES IN THE BAR. If, and this is too true, those nonsingers can't tolerate noise coming from karaoke and stop coming in on those nights, a very important element is gone..and those are the people that are keeping many bars alive right now. Why one earth would you risk driving them out? An empty bar is poison.

Additionally, there are singers who don't want to sing in a bar where there are no people to listen - egotists maybe, but they just don't want to hang around and will find another show.

I don't have to deal with this problem, thankfully. I would suggest that this scenario requires a KJ that is very perceptive as to the solution in their particular venue. While creating my response to this question, I thought of one place we do a show at in particular. Hubby and I both sing and if it happens that there are only a few singers for the first 30 minutes of the show, he puts me up to sing and he might sing an extra song. Just makes sense to provide some level of entertainment for the majority of the people in the bar who aren't singing. If the bartender had to watch his/her regulars leave and he/she loses out on his/her tip money from those people, he's/she's not going to be a happy camper. The result is a bartender who suggests to the owner that that KJ is costing them money because of their ineptitude. The bartender may not identify exactly why the regulars might be leaving but the end result is he will blame the KJ...and guess what? New KJ.

If the host and his partner and two other singers are stuck going up one after the other for 30 minutes but they are providing a certain level of entertainment and the regulars sitting at the bar are responding positively, that is one thing. If, however, you see them cringe and they complain to the bartender, even jokingly, about the singing, you can be there will be repercussions.

BTW, hubby has NEVER played music between even the type of singers I spoke of initially. He will continue on bringing them up. And the bartender has suggested that there are people who have stopped coming in because of that. So there ya have it.

And yes, I did leave a show recently because of filler music ... but there were a lot of other considerations besides the filler music.

Great point, Knightshow.
A good KJ will know his regulars and roughly how many songs they do. I had this happen recently, at my first night at a new gig. It was the first Sunday night they'd been open since the summer, and so I naturally had very few singers. I kept myself in rotation and even ended up doing 2 at time (myself only) because I knew my singers had a limited number of songs and we were quickly running through them. They weren't up to trying new things, so I was stuck. It worked out, though, because after awhile, we had some others come in, and it filled out nicely. I got to stop doing twofers (Whew!) but never did get enough singers to take myself comepletely out. But we had a good night anyway and everyone was happy.
I can say that it would be a downer for my limited-song singers to get all their songs done in the first hour or so of the night. They tend to become bored and end up leaving early. It's usually their planned night out, so if they get to sing too much, too soon, their night is ruined.
So it CAN go the other way, too.
The trick is know which is which, and doing the balancing act between the two.

If that is what you are basing your karaoke decision on, something is wrong.

Karaoke only really makes money if there are a significant number of non-singers present. If you only ever have singers attending, your show is never going to make it. The singers won't like the audience nor the wait. And the bar won't like the money.

To repeat -- karaoke is to bring the non-singers out by having something "be happening" at the club. If it isn't doing that, you might as well not have it.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Wrong!
Karaoke is to bring the SPENDERS out, be they singers or not.
Without the SPENDERS, your show is a moot point.

Well he could have -- I should have put 3 of us including host SINGING... - because after we left there were no singers left.

Why would anyone go to a karaoke bar if they are not going to sing? Not to listen to karaoke, that's for sure. They are going for the drink, really, but yearning underneath for something to *happen*. When people are there, things are happening.

That is why focusing on the "spenders" is ridiculous. Your "non-spenders" are going to be karaoke singers, by definition. If that is all that is in attendance, your show is done. Kaput. The spending of the singers is not what you are after. You are after the spending of the non-singers, who by definition drink. If they are abusive drinkers or alcoholics, they may gamble and otherwise lose control which is how a bar makes money.

Once again, karaoke is only there to make something happen to attract people who are looking to go hang out, drink, and hope for something to happen.

Plus, in all of this idiotic discussion of "non-spenders", no one has ever come up with a method for attracting "spenders" as oppoosed to "non-spenders". Only the people who put some basic rules in place and make a place fertile for fun attract "spenders". They are too busy doing the right things to worry about "non-spenders".

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well, Mckyj, the scenario here is obviously different than where you are.
You are making assumptions based on your experience at your venue(s), which is fair, because that is what you know.
However, your assumption, as applied to my venues, are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!
First, most of my singers DO drink. I have exactly 2 non drinkers at one venue.
I also have many people who DO come out just to listen. Really, I'm not making this up. And yes, they drink as well.
Gambling is illegal in the bars here, so that part of the equation doesn't apply here.
You also assume that my patrons are coming mainly to drink. Wrong again!
If that's all they wanted to do, they would stay home and drink cheaper, plus be able to smoke indoors (we have a no smoking law in place here). Trust me, that's what happens on many nights around here since the no smoking law went into effect a few years back.
They come out for the entertainment value, be it singing, or listening.
Yes they come out to have fun. That''s what PEOPLE, spenders and non, alike, do.
But really the bottom line is you want to attract SPENDERS, no matter what you say.
You can have a bar full of non spenders, but if the place goes broke because you have no SPENDERS, your show will be cancelled.
So the bottom line is really the bottom line on the till at the end of the night.
And you can't raise that bottom line on the till without SPENDERS.

That's true, but they ALSO come to hear the singers. Granted, some to roll their eyes, but many of my non-singing regs were constantly surprised by the good karaoke, and the bad! !

It's honesly no different than bands... they do covers.

The non-singers come to hang out with their friends. Some of their friends are non-singers, sometimes its just to see the show, sometimes it's to razz their singing friends after their done, and I've seen many a non-singer look through the book to give suggestions to others.

When you look at a truly sucessful karaoke venue, only about half of the people there are really singing! ((On average in my experience))

Then why don't they go to a DJ bar or a band bar? Stay home and watch movies? Do other entertainment of any of an innumerable kind?


What is the magic incantation to do that? I am sure the world wants to know.


Well, if you can figure out the magic formula to attract "spenders", bottle it and sell it. No one here is aware of that formula, that's for sure.

Again, non-singers want to go where something is happening. Karaoke is a seed for something to happen. It is guaranteed people in the form of the singers. The non-singers come for the people -- they are the entertainment.

If you get enough people coming in an area that has a high enough socio-economic level and the right demographic, you will get "spenders".

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Mckyj, I'm not sure why you're trying to split hairs, nor am I sure which ones they are that you're trying to split!
Suffice it to say, that at my shows, they are coming for the karaoke, the comraderie, the singers and the singing, and on and on.
I could continue to list, but what's the point?
What point, exactly, are you trying to make?
I'm sharing MY experience with MY shows in MY area and you're trying to tell me I'm wrong.
But about what?
And why?
You haven't been to my shows so you can't say what's at play here.
I can.
I've been in the bar business in one form or another for over 20 years.
I certainly don't lack experience in it.
I KNOW the business, particularly in this area.
Please don't try to tell me I'm wrong without defining exactly what I'm wrong about and without actually knowing what you're talking about.
What works for you works for you, and that's great. I'm happy for you. But it might not be the same for me or anyone else.
Please remember that.

Again, I'll go back to the venues of one of the shows we do for this example. The nonsinging regulars come in for a great dinner special, the outgoing and excellent bartender, to visit with their friends and shoot the bull while sitting around the bar, to catch professional games on any one of the 40 big screens, to shoot pain or throw darts, and because it is a great location with tons of parking. They do NOT come in for karaoke. They'd be there if there was karaoke or not. Obviously this group of people has a great impact on the bottom line of this place. Their monetary contribution FAR exceeds that of the karaoke singers.

Fact is, many of the singers who roam in our area go out and sing 4-5 nights a week so they are not considered BIG spenders.

It is ridiculous to belabor this point - without the regulars at the bar, the $$ take at the end of the night, and the contents of tip jar for the bartender, server, and cook would be considerably less. I know of very few bars or venues where the karaoke singers pay for the place to stay open. Karaoke often nicely supplements the income generated at a bar. So obviously if you alienate (translation: drive them out the door) the regulars (nonsingers) it won't be long before karaoke is gone.

Balance is what it's all about - you do whatever you have to to maintain that balance. If you are an experienced host, you recognize what you need to do and when, how often, and to what extent. If that means you cater some to the nonsingers once in a blue moon, you do it but not to the exclusion of the singers who are there.

For the last two posters. I am currently looking for a host. Min would be $87.50 per night. Wanna move to Colorado?

How many here would hire a hard core karaoke singer for a host? That might deserve another thread..

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I think that most people make a conscious decision as to where they are going to hang out for the night. If they decide to spend their evening at a karaoke bar, they understand that they will be listening to people sing all night. Many of the KJ's think that it's okay to pacify these non-singers by playing canned music when the rotation is small. How do the same KJ's feel about playing the same amount of canned music if there are 15-20 singers in the rotation? If canned music is bad when there are many singers, how can it be a good thing when there are just a few singers. Filler music is either good or bad. I don't think it can be both. If you only have 5 singers that sing poorly coming to your show, you may never have successful gigs. These less than stellar singers do have the ability to make listeners go home early. On the other hand, 5 talented singers have the ability to entertain the listening crowd and maybe get them to bring more listeners in the future. If your filler music causes those 5 talented singer to go somewhere else where there is NO FILLER MUSIC, then your show will have nothing to keep the listeners there and those listeners will certainly not be telling their friends about the great karaoke show where no one sings but they play great filler music. If I were going out with friends for dinner and entertainment and wanted to hear a DJ play music, I wouldn't suggest going to a Karaoke Bar. However, being a singer myself, I would try to get my friends to all meet at a karaoke Bar that would allow us to sing as often as possible. If the KJ turned into a DJ every half hour, I would try to get my friends to leave and go elsewhere. I am both a singer and a listener and I would rather listen to the worst singer in the world than listen to filler music. Listening to that terrible singer gets me and everyone else closer to singing AGAIN. Listening to filler music just wastes minutes of our lives. I can listen to filler music at home if I'm in the mood to hear it. I go to a karaoke bar to hear other people sing LIVE. I'd rather hear Joe Blow sing Sweet Caroline than hear Neil Diamond sing it....unless I am at a Neil Diamond concert.