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Inevitably in most shows the first rotation is shorter than later rotations as people arrive or get the courage (sometimes liquid) to sing.

For me on a busy show the first rotation may be about 10 people or less but the second (or later) rotation reaches about 25 or more.

The problem is that If I follow a strict rotation and place all of the new singers at the end of the rotation, a new singer may arive and turn in a slip and sing within 5-10 minutes but a singer that has been waiting for hours (or more) to sing their second song.

It is a difficult decison on how to be fair to both the early arrivers and the people who stay in the bar for their second song. From the point of view of the bar, it is in their interest to keep people in the bar to sing a second song, especially if there are several other bars within walking distance.

My solution (for busy nights) is to always add new singers to 10th place in the list and the next "new" singer is placed 12th, 14th, 16th etc alternating old and new singers. Of course some of the old singers may leave on long shows, but I hold the place in the rotation for this purpose.

I admit my "solution" is not perfect but like anything else it is a compromise. It annoys some who expect their turn to come after the same singer as before, but otherwise I would go through extended runs of all the second songs of singers or extended runs of all new singers.

Any other ways out there to handle such a situation?

One advantage of this way of doing thing is that often a group of friends may arrive together, and all turn in slips about the same time. This approach tends to break up such groups so they do not all sing one after the other. The result is that such groups tend to be more attentive to other singers who may sing between their friends turns and also prolongs the group of friends time in the bar when they might be leaving after they all had their turn to sing.

I pick an arbitrary point where it looks like new singers are showing up, I say "First rotation closes in 5 minutes, get your slips in. Those who are hot to sing will do so, the "don't cares" won't mind if they go to the end of the second rotation.

I also find that if I start on time, or even early, a lot of people show up for the first rotation. On shows that routinely start late, the first rotation is light because no one wants to cool their heels waiting for setup.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

This subject came up Thursday morning when my DJ friend said he would stop by my first show. He told me he would sing and I told him I would do my best to get him in without waiting too long and he told me his concept which is very close to yours. He will basically use the middle and the end of the rotation.

Yeah you really want to avoid this if possible. My first choice for insertion is in a spot vacated by someone who's left, but early in the night I look for creases and seams in the rotation between groups and do it there.

It's never an exact art with me. All kinds of things are going through my head. How many times has everyone sung already... how much time will there be until the first people sing next... who really cares and who doesn't... who's coming in late after dropping most of their money in another bar, and who's coming in late because they just got off work...

edit and a little OT: There's a guy who comes in from another karaoke bar, drinks ice water at my place to sober up, and actually has the nerve to want to sing. I put him in "true" rotation... just before the singer currently up. That means that the whole room will get to sing before his turn. I think that's more than fair. Some of you may not let someone like that sing at all I imagine.

I think of my show as one continuous rotation.

I use Compuhost with slips. I use the slips to map out the rotation on a cork board near me for all the singers to see. On the board is a grid of 60 squares; 6 rows of 10 squares, each square is slightly larger than a song slip, every other square is marked RED. This might sound a little complicated but once the grid is inked (with fat magic markers) onto the corkboard you have a nice tool for tracking the rotation that your singers can look at any time to see where they are.

The first 10 singers are lined up in the top row as they turn in their slips. As each person sings, their slip is moved to the end of the rotation onto the first black square. If they haven't turned in their next slip I use their old slip (after marking it as used by writing a bold black line through it with my magic marker), I tell the singer I will hold their place in the rotation as long as they turn in a new slip before they are up again.

As the rotation Grows beyond 10 singers every other place in the grid (the red squares) is left open for "first time singers". As new singers turn in slips they get the first open red square.

The great thing about the corkboard is that it clearly illustrates to all the singers how the rotation works. and where they are in the rotation. Sometimes on a busy night a new singer will turn in a slip and wonder how long they are gonna have to wait. I point out the board, guickly explain how it works, and show them that we allready have 10 first time singers ahead of them taking up the red squares, as well as 10 rotation singers, then I put them in the first available red square, and tell them it will be a little over an hour before they get up. Nobody wants to wait that long for their first song...but after seeing the board, the new singer understands how the rotation works and knows they are being treated fairly. This is an extreme example but it has happened to me just that way.
Another example:
A singer waiting to sing his third song wonders why it it taking so long. I point to the board and show him that 10 first time singers have shown up, which has caused him to be pushed back in the rotation. The board makes it clear to him that it is a "Fair and Honest" rotation.

With compuhost I dont really even need to use slips, it keeps track of the rotation for you. The corkboard is really for the singers.

It has been a great tool for me and it keeps the singers happy during a long rotation. The singers are what it is all about for me!

I came up with the board after reading lots of posts from other KJ's in this forum on the subject. THANK YOU Karaoke Scene

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[font=Fantasy][/font]LIVE IN THE MOMENT

that's why I run a pure rotation like a line in a bank or grocery store. As you leave the stage, resign back up (on a whiteboard), or I take your song slip and put it on the bottom... if five or five hundred people come up, the person that just finished singing is now after the last person that handed in a request.

Just like elementary school ladies and gentlemen!

DynoMyk I like your system but it sounds like a pain to maintain. Keeping in mind that compuhost shows the rotation on the screen, I like the compuhost set up.

However, if I had a request and the person sings, walks off the stage and doesn't already have another song request in, I delete them from the rotation. Then when they sign up again, I enter them at the end. It only takes about 20 seconds or less to call their name back in and enter their new request. Otherwise your scrolling marquee could be showing the next 10 singers when in fact only 3 of them have songs lined up so it throws everyone off as to how much time they have left. Now if they come over after singing with a request, I will leave them.

I'm just starting out so likely I will change my methods as I adjust to the customers and the situations.

At my show, new singers go to the end of the rotation, always.
I also am aware that new singers could sing after only waiting a few minutes while older singers may have to wait, depending on what point we are in the rotation. This is where you can get an instinct of knowing when to close the round and start a new one.
I never have my older singers wait unfairly while new singers are "favoured" because of the place we are at in the rotation. If I find my older singers may be waiting too long and I get a new singer in, and if I'm near the end of the current rotation, I will wait until after the next rotation starts to enter them. I use my own name as a rotation marker, regardless if I sing or not, because my first singer may not be there until the very end of the night. The only person guaranteed to be there is me. So that's why I use myself as the rotation marker. It takles a little bit of experience to know when to close the rotation, but it quickly becomes second nature, and I never get complaints about waiting unfairly.
That's not to say I don't get waiting complaints, which are different. It's inevitable if I have a large rotation. Usually, those people are new, and once it's explained to them, they understand.

while we have often repeat topics of importance, I enthusiastically get involved awaiting the day someone comes up with the "better mouse trap".

and.... the last time we covered this topic, about 2-3 weeks ago, I thought our new member, Lisah, offered a unique, unquestionably fair, easy to maintain and easy, even under the keenest scrutiny, to justify system .

Basically, as I recall, when someone "new" hands in a slip, their slip goes into the rotation right in front of the slip of the current singer. The "new" person therefore, gets to sing before the current singer gets their NEXT turn.

To accomplish this.. Lisah keeps two stacks of slips: one of people who have sung in the last rotation and one of people waiting to sing. The slips of those who have sung and "new" singers awaiting their first turn are placed face down.

The stack of slips for the singers waiting to sing "next" are stacked face up. As each singer completes their next turn, their slip goes on the "top" of the face down stack, which means they are at the bottom of the rotation at that very moment.

So..in short, the "new" singer will not hear the current singer sing again before they get to sing their first song, and people who have been waiting to sing, even if its their third time, will not be "bumped" in the rotation by the "new" singer!

Sounds great to me!!!

Ripman8, your right it does sound like a pain to maintain. But it actually makes things easier for me when I get a number of people handing in slips at once, all right before a singer is ending their song. I simply tack the slips in their spots on the board bam, bam,bam....then when i have a chance I enter the names into compuhost. I only show the next 3 singers in the scroller, and never enter a new singer before #4 in the rotation. I think I got that tip from a mouse. My system of doing things is definatly not a better Mouse Trap It's unnessarily complicated to empliment, The corkboard is extra work to put together with the grid drawn on it, and it is redundet when using Compuhost. But it is my mouse trap and I wanted to share

The reason i have made a point of shuffeling new singers into to the rotation (rather than place them at the end) is because of the owner at my venue. He was very concerned about new singers that show up later in the night getting up to sing He even told me i shouldn't worry about singers that have been their all night He likes to get those drinks sold to late comers.

The system I use is the best compromise between being fair to my singers and satisfying the owner, whom after all is the guy that pays me at the end of the night

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[font=Fantasy][/font]LIVE IN THE MOMENT

I use AutoKDJ to manage my rotation. New Singers are preferred in the rotation, and get added before any repeats. If any singer has been waiting in the queue for longer then 25 minutes, a new singer is queued AFTER that singer. I also have a setting that only allows each singer to have 2 songs in the queue at any given time, so that one person doesn't dominate the list. This is helpful because a singer could enqueue a half dozen songs, and monopolize the rotation at the end of the night.

The finally setting I use is a dynamic "lock" on the length of the rotation, the singers in the first 25% of the rotation are locked in their position, and new singers will then be queued after those singers .. Similar to what I mentioned above, but as the list gets longer, some of the older singers that are slowly moving back towards the top are guarenteed their position.

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Chuck
Powerhouse Productions
Live Karaoke Broadcasts Daily

AutoKDJ rotation management sounds pretty good the way you have it set up.

But I'm smitten with compuhost, and could never leave it

I think a singer may think that their waiting unfairly long in a rotation and not complain...They just might not come back, even though they may be wrong about the unfair wait. That is why I make such a big deal about the fairness of my rotation with the board and all.

Some of you out there don't need a visual aid, or, a song rotation program to run a fair rotation. you can do it with skill and experience. The good ones among you can do it in a way that makes the singers confident that you are being fair. The bad KJ's don't even care if they're being fair.

I use all the help I can get, and it works for me

I DO have a sucessfull show

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[font=Fantasy][/font]LIVE IN THE MOMENT

It's been interesting reading everyone's take on handling their rotation and what is or isn't fair. I have to admit that some examples seem a little unnecessary and overly complicated, .....and I'm sober. I think knightshow is right on. I've been doing it the same way he does for years. A pure rotation is the only truly fair rotation. We've all grown accustomed to waiting in lines for everything that we do in life and they all work the same way. We may not like them but they are fair. In a bar where alcohol starts to factor in, keeping it simple is the best policy. I can't recall ever having any difficulties by handling my rotation like this, just like a ride at an amusement park. Once you ride, you get to the back of the line.
Once you sing, you go to the back of the rotation. If a new singer hands in a slip, they will go to the back of the rotation just ahead of the person who is currently singing. My rotation typically hits an hour or longer on weekdays and weekends with no complaints. The only question I get is "how long is the wait" but I never have to waste my time explaining my rotation over the music when it's busy. However, the bottom line is doing whatever works best for you, the bar, and your singers.

I think I can cite the example from my most recent show why I think that a straight rotation is not always "fair", or more importantly will not build a following and a well attended show.

In the show which was a fundraiser, It was preceeded by a chili cookoff. Several people turned in requests well in advance (about 8:30), while the show did not start until 11:00.

The first rotation was very busy and I had over 45 requests by different people (at which point I did not take any more requests), as the laws require the bar to close at 2, and I only ended up having about 45 songs sung 11-2.


My choice was to either let some people who turned their first slips as late as 1:30 or later to have a chance to sing or let the people who turned in slips at 8:30 (and sang at around 11:00) to sing a second song. My solution was to let about 6 of the first people to sing a second song, they were all regulars at my other shows, and also were involved in the group that put on the fundraser in the first place.


It all comes down to keeping your regulars happy, and as far as I am concerned a person that shows up and turns in their slip at 1:30 is much less valuable to the bar (and future shows) than someone who has continously been there for 5+ hours, and waited at least 2.5 hours since their last song.


Keeping people in the bar is the key. I dont want a show where people show up for 30-40 minutes sing a song and depart. With a dozen bars within walking distance enough of that happens anyway. With a long rotation it is not unusual to have 20-30 people waiting to sing. They will leave if they know they will never sing a second song. That contributes to getting the crowd to that "critical" size that makes it a happening "event" and even attracts a bigger crowd.

On the other hand with a more strict rotation in such a situation the regulars will go elsewhere, roamers will show up sing and depart. The net result is while a strict rotation may end up with more different people in the bar as the come, sing and depart, a modified rotation keeps more people to stick around for their second song.

It is not too difficult in a busy town to have 45 different people sing in a night, and at the same time never have a crowd in the bar much over 20. With a modified rotation (that keeps prior singers waiting for their turn, because they have a hope of singing AND also keeps new singers waiting for a bit longer) the same number of people coming into the bar could double the average number of people present in the bar, and that translates into happy bartenders and owners.

DJfred and I differ on this. I like to create regulars so I favor the new singer over the ones who have already sung that night. That said as soon as I get enough songs to finish the night I close the request taking. CompuHost makes deciding that easy for me. If I was running AutoKDJ it would even be easier as it closes the roequest taking on it's own.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

When you FAVOR new singers over the ones who have already sung you are in fact --dissing your regulars. It's a fine line for sure , you want to allow the NEW SINGER to experience your show so they return but also keep the REGULARS happy.

Just like they do at DISNEY WORLD I think offering a SPEED PASS to regulars is the key. What do you think? $10.00 will assure you sing within 15 minutes IT IS NOT A BRIBE ---IT IS NOT A BRIBE

It's just a prefered singer membership type of thing

Often in this type of thread, KJs act as though the first rotation is the only group of really true singers/followers. In reality people show up at different times of the night for various reasons. Granted if you have a group of 20 singers who are ready to go at the very minute the show starts, which would be a very healthy rotation on a week night at the beginning of the week, it does take a while to get through them. So obviously if they are there and queued up, any stragglers (who may not be less serious about singing) will go at the end of that line. I'm not sure exactly why there appears to be such immovable regimentation about rotations - I believe it was Bill H who mentioned earlier in this thread or maybe another thread, that you have to keep in mind all sorts of factors as far as slipping new singers in. Consistency is the key. No surprises - and a new singer who comes in at 11 p.m. is not going to have to wait an hour and a half to sing. It's 3-1/2 or 4 minutes! I think you teach your singers how to treat you - if you are considerate and consistent, and there are no surprises, everybody is as happy as you can get everybody to be happy at one time.

We have singers who don't get off work until 9 p.m. or later - but they come in every week. I don't go so far as to 'reserve' them a spot but you bet they'll be in the next group of 4-5 singers. I believe the rotation is a part of the show, not the ONLY part of the show, and to put so much stress on an EXACT rotation is ludicrous. If you do that, and for some reason the rotation gets disrupted, people get attitude. (It's kind of like feeding your horses every day at 4:30 - if for some reason it is 5 p.m. when you feed them they get horribly impatient and may misbehave.)

I'm not suggesting playing loose with your rotation, but I am suggesting that if your focus is SO heavily on rotation, you may limit yourself unnecessarily. It's the whole package.

With a really long rotation it is difficult to predict how many people will stay around, especially if they are going to sing 2 hours or more later. I generally have a feel how many will leave (about 5 depated without singing with a 2 hour wait) but it could easily be more or less.

Also song length is pretty variable so there is always a bit of uncertainty.

I generally give 5-10 people warnings when they turn in slips that they may not get to sing, before I stop taking slips. On average about half the people I give warnings to actually end up singing.

Anytime you are asking for money in return for favoritism (yes, that's REALLY what it is!), it is called a BRIBE.
Call it what you want.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Fred,

A Fundraiser most likely is the exception, not the rule for "rotations", and any discussion on it wouldn't be fair to lump into a regular rotation discussion...

For purposes like that, I'd consider a fundraiser more like a private show, where the rules really wouldn't apply the same as with a regular gig. I mean, people would be paying to sing next, challenging others, etc...