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Your getting into an area that the bar owners/managers are not going to appreciate when you start taking money for singing placement. Not to mention what your other singer's may think when they see you accepting money. I have had people lay down cash to move them ahead and I return it openly for everyone to see. Nice big smile and say, sorry I have to be fair.

I have many singers turn in multiple slips at one time which I handle by putting one in the rotation and setting the rest aside. When they get up to sing I put their next slip at the bottom. If a new singer joins and the queue is an hour deep, they are told the length of the wait and they too go to the bottom of the pile.

As singer's complete their song the slip gets turned over and set aside. If I am ever questioned or I lose track, I can look through the slips to see the order.

I generally have the same group of people throughout my entire show buying food and drinks. If in the meanwhile, Joe Schmo comes in 30 minutes before close and expects to jump in ahead of paying patrons...not gonna happen. Again, big smile and a "I'm sorry... please come in earlier next time because I would love to have you sing!


Objective; Keep the regulars happy, discourage the idea that money can buy everything and encourage people to come earlier next time so they add cash to the bar, sing sooner & more often!

I believe in a strictly fair rotation along the lines of the amusement park ride that has already been referred to. If I come off of the ride and go to the end of the line so I can get on the ride again, someone who shows up who hasn't been on the ride already, when it's almost my turn to get on the ride again, should NOT be able to get in front of me at the head of the line....even if he just got out of work. Come to the "amusement park" on your day off the next time and get there early. If you reward the person who shows up late, they will always come late. If you don't reward them, maybe they will come earlier and be a better customer for the venue. Also, if you reward them for showing up late, you might just annoy some of your customers that usually show up early and they may find another show to go to that rewards the people who show up early instead of the people who show up later. If I'm willing to wait and hour or more to sing a second song, then I believe that someone who shows up late should be willing to wait the same amount of time to sing their first song. I went to a karaoke bar Saturday night after being at a different karaoke bar first. I got to the second place around midnight and asked the KJ if there would be time for me to get to sing a song. He said yes so I gave him a song that I wanted to sing. I expected to wait an entire rotation before I would get to sing which is fine with me because I believe it should be done that way. I couldn't help but notice who was singing when I walked in because the singer was quite bad. The singer who got called up after I handed in my song is also a memorable singer so when he got called up to sing for a second song before I did my first, I started to think that KJ lost my slip or just misplaced it by one spot. Then he called up another singer and I started to get a little annoyed. (yeah me, who would have thought it). Finally, after an entire rotation plus two more singers I was called up to sing my first and only song. Now I know it's only 10 more minutes of waiting time, after waiting over an hour already, but I think that in that situation, the KJ should have gotten me up before the extra two singers that I had to hear sing twice before they heard me sing once. No one should have to wait for MORE than an entire rotation.

IT WAS A JOKE

BruceFFL...you'd get to sing more at my show but if you insist that your way is the only way, glad you're happy with it. Gawdforbid you get to a show late...

I think that my way is the only FAIR way. I don't mind waiting for an entire rotation to sing. If I get there too late, that's just too bad for me. I have no one to blame but myself. I just don't think that I should have to wait LONGER than a full rotation. I've been to shows where they insert new singers willy nilly and I accept the way they do it their way. It's just not the style that I prefer. I went to a place where I knew I would have to wait an entire rotation and I was fine with it. That's why I asked the guy if I could get "A" song in before closing. He said yes so I stayed. I don't go to a show soley based on the way they insert new singers but that is something I do consider before deciding where I'm going to sing that evening.

Bruce this the way it is with my shows. In the first rotation it is first come first come first serve. For the next 3 hours insertion depends upon many factors. First off is the size of rotation. Next is current rotation. I have many singers that I have known for 15 years and they will relinquish their spot to a newcomer and I can insert new singers at my discretion. If I have many new singers with attitudes, it is wait full rotation.

At no time will I tolerate disrespect or selfishness towards management, staff, my listeners or my regular singers. In the last hour or esp the last 30 min I insert new singers to try to get them in in. However if they are drunk or display attitudes they do not sing. My first obligation is to the regs that are there week in and week out whether they are singers or listeners. This is business...

At my shows you are not a stranger and totally welcome but a requirement is you socialize and make friends with the owners, management and my clientelle. My shows are dynamic and vary from hour to hour. Respect and obligations are a two way street.

If you can not bide by these rules then I will recommend a small bar down the street. It has no filler music but maybe 20-30 singers no audience and the mood is dead with a total negative atmosphere. It will meet your desires to a tee. However I no longer do these bars.

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Some get a defibrillator!!!!!......


Because I am about to agree 100% with Bruce.


I run it amusement park style- and get thanked for it almost every show.

1) It's fair, and keeps "hoppers" at bay. Why should singers who have been supporting the venue all night get bumped for the singer that shows up at 12, after spending time AND their money at another venue? Come early, sing more often.


2) This is the reason for the thank yous: Everyone KNOWS when they are going to sing. They follow the same person each time ( except for the anchor singer, who follows the newest singer at the end of the line). Bathroom and smoke breaks can be timed accordingly, and no "on deck" calls are needed.


When a new singer comes in the LONGEST wait is 1 rotation, but that's only if they come in and give me a slip just at the beginning. If they come in, say, two songs before the END of the rotation, then they only have a 2 song wait. Seems very fair to me.....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Once again Joe, You DO NOT Understand. If someone comes in and sings in two songs when you have a ten person rotation, you are NOT running an amusement park style line rotation. In an amusement park rotation(with ten people in it for this example) if singer number 8 is singing; the list now looks like this (9, 10, 1, 2, 3 ,4, 5, 6, 7, NEW SINGER, 8. The new singer gets to sing only after he has heard every other person sing, regardless of who is singing when the new singer walks in.

If you are again waiting in line at Six Flags, after you have already been on the desired ride(with ten people in line for this example) a new rider gets put at the back of the line. He doesn't get put in between rider number 10 and number 1 regardless of where they are in the line. He waits for ten people to get on the ride no matter what. Just like rider number 1 has to wait for the other 9 people to get on the ride before he gets back on. Everyone waits the exact same amount of time as everyone else. Nobody gets lucky by showing up at the end of the imaginary rotation. The end of the rotation is not person number 10 if person number 8 is at the front of the line. If person number 8 is at the front of the line, then person number 7 is at the end of the rotation and the new singer should be placed after singer number 7. The end of the rotation is constantly changing as each singer finishes a song and moves to the back of the line to begin their wait once again.

You can put away the defibrillator now.

My owner. management staff security and my regs (listeners and singers) determine policies that determine format or silly rules that many here argue about. That might be the reason that I increase my fees on a regular basis. How many here are in constant communication or actually know what a business meeting is?

These arguments while might be the fodder for forums do not determine my policies. My decisions are determined by many years of experience and business consultations with owners and staff. Please do not compare your small bar with my requirements at this time or argue with my methods or formats. I have done your bars for years stagnated and saw no future or no possibillities of expansion..

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Dearest Ollie, I am very glad that you run successful shows and that your bosses and customers enjoy what it is that you do. I wish you continued success in all that you do. I have never expected anyone to change the way they do things just to satisfy me. I'm just stating my opinions on what I think is the FAIREST way to run a rotation for all of the singers. You state that use your discretion to decide who gets to sing and when towards the end of your shows. Using discretion means that there is nothing fair about it. It is your personal preference that determines who gets to sing, and while that may work for you, it wouldn't work for me as a singer. I'd be happier at that dead negative bar down the street from your gig. No offense intended at you personally. I'm just a real stickler when it comes to being fair to EVERYONE.

Bruce if you ever get to Greeley I will buy you a few drinks, show you the best system in town and maybe even pay for your taxi ride to that other bar. But when you leave Greeley you will leave with memories of friends and will always want to come back. This I guarantee. But I do have rules and customs as you do and all ask is you respect them..

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Who said anything about anyone SINGING TWO SONGS????

Geez, even when I agree with you.....

I SAID that if a new singer comes in near the END of the rotation "say, two songs away" FROM THE END, then that singer only has to WAIT 2 songs before being tacked on to THE END OF THE ROTATION.

Then after singing the song ( after being added to the END of the rotation) that singer doesn't sing again until that place in the NEXT rotation.

However, once a place in the rotation is secured, it doesn't change. The next singer that walks in goes AFTER that last singer that did.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

DO YOU READ BEFORE YOU POST???? I didn't say anything about them singing two songs. I said if they only wait for two songs(singing IN two songs) before they get to sing, it isn't FAIR. If there are TEN people in the rotation, the NEW SINGER should have to hear ALL TEN of them before he gets to sing his first song.

You know what Bruce, you are 100% correct. I misread your post, and I apologize.

However, you my rotation works best for me.

Look on the bright side- we didn't agree again! Life is good.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe, It works for you because anything else is too complicated for you to comprehend. One person will wait for ten minutes and someone else will wait for an hour, if he comes in fifteen minutes later when singer number one is singing. Luck shouldn't enter into how long someone has to wait to sing their first song. It should be based on how many people are in the rotation before he gets there. Sorry that it's too tough to grasp for you.

Ya know why do you kids would want to argue with an old man that has hosted everything from weddings to square dances belly dance shows in front of crowds of thousands is totally beyond me. My experience comes from singing to important dignitaries to hosting formal functions. It does not take special talent for hosting karaoke I can train a 12 year old in minutes. It does take people skills and the ability to read crowds and present what the majority wants. Some of these talents are not taught but come from within just like a pro football player.

Most of the radical rule or format arguments here come from super egos or singers. They in no way reflect opinions of successful karaoke hosts. You will never determine my format or influence the powers in my venues. Yet you post and post as if you are going to change opinions. Your opinion does not make me money and your attitude is not welcome at our shows.

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So are you a Colorado Coor's Man or do drink the hard stuff, Ollie?

Just to clarify, I treat the second song singers no better than the new singers, in fact they usually have to wait longer between their two songs than a just arrived singer. For example if I have a list of people about 20 long, the old singer who just sang would be placed at #20 for their second song, and the new singer would be placed at #10, and a 2nd new singer at #12 etc.

That moves the list forward for both the 2nd song singers and the "new" singers.

Except for the cases where someone sings a duet on someone else's turn nobody should see someone else sing twice before they get a turn.

Now there have been times where I made mistakes and often people turn in slips under two names on busy nights that I do not catch in time. I try to stop them, but once or twice I have made mistakes.

I guess Lisah's suggestion is so new and refreshing, that I am the only one that gets it?
Her policy allows everyone who is in rotation to sing once before someone gets to sing for another turn. In short, it doesn't make a newcomer wait until everyone has sung twice before he/she gets to sign for the first time. And, on the other hand.. the newcomer isn't being allowed to "cut in"; one full rotation will occur before the newcomer ever gets to sing! So, what could be more fair than that.

As for you who are using software (AutoKjDJ or Compuhost) to run your rotation, sharing that knowledge is worthless to those of us who have no such software and no desire to acquire it!

And, no, karaoke is not analogous to a line at an amusement park ride. You have choices of rides and attractions at an amusement park. You're not "stuck" in and limited to one line all day!

And when you're at the end of the ride line, you can see the actual bodies in front of you, (rather than some invisisble paper queue). And some of those ahead of you just go off the ride and ran in front of you while you were walking over to the line, trying to makeup your mind on which ride (song) you were going to try.

Thanks, again, Lisah for what to me is a brilliant and more than acceptable alternative to what most of us have been doing!

I believe that most people that are referring to the amusement park analogy are thinking along the lines of some imaginary amusement park with only one ride called the karaoke ride. Sorry if you couldn't figure that out