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If that were true we wouldn't even be having this discussion. If there are 20 singers in the rotation, and someone new comes in at midnight, does that mean they won't get to sing till 1:15 am?

What if singer 8 leaves? I can get a new person in that slot that hasn't had a chance to sing yet.

How the rotation works when there are 7 singers and how it works with 25 is completely different. Duets for example: Am I going to be a hard (@$%&#!) with only 7 people there and not allow a repeat singer pair? That's silly. This is about everyone having fun.... EVERYONE.

Getting more and different singers up keeps the non-singers entertained, and encourges new patrons to return to the bar to become regulars. If you expect karaoke to remain at you favorite hang out, than the KJ has to be flexible... otherwise it may stagnate without growth.

This is the part of the business singers rarely see, and frequently don' t get.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

I've had MORE complaints if I don't run a regular straight rotation (Betty follows Joe who followed Steve...), If singer #8 left, then singer #9 BECOMES #8. I tried the insertion method... to me, it just doesn't work.

I won't penalize the singers that have been sponsoring my show by bumping them back and confusing the rotation. If at midnight a singer handed me a slip, they go to the bottom of the line.

I now use a whiteboard, and it's easy enough to see where you are in the rotation at a glance. Sign up at the BOTTOM of the list. Everybody ELSE waited... THEY can now wait just like everyone else.

Insertion just penalizes those that have been there PAYING for the show. Someone else shows up later and gets in within 8 songs... the other singers would throw a FIT!

If any KJ has a rotation policy that keeps them working for years and years at the same locations, there is probably no reason for them to change anything. If they've never received a single complaint in all that time, I applaud you. No reason to change, even if there was a "fairer" way to do it. Can't argue with success.

Some KJ's, however, may run their shows the exact same way with very different results. Sometimes other factors play a much bigger role in keeping a good show running for a long time. You obviously know how to keep all of your customers satisfied so they keep coming back. Others aren't so lucky.

Lisah has a good approach to the rotation management.

Seems "fair"

I used to maintain a concrete rotation where I would just keep adding people to the first rotation as they would come in untill I would run out of new singers becasue I wanted everyone to get a chance to sing before it got too late. This worked fine when I first started out before my show got so big. However, I'm now averaging up to thirty singers per rotation. The down side is that sometimes someone who is there at the start of the show has to wait over two hours to sing their SECOND song. I was always so busy, I didn't realize how bad it was until one night I decided to let my protege run the show. After reading so many ideas here, I've decided to try the "theme park ride" idea. Early singers now sing their second song in usualy less than an hour, and I've gotten a lot of compliments on how the rotation works. I wish I had done this a year ago. Of course, now late-comers have to wait a full rotation before they get thier first song, (which they aren't too happy about), but they completely understand and have started coming in earlier in the night. (Which the bar owner is quite pleased about too).

Mustang

I am confused.... my understanding is that the "theme park" approach IS the same as the "concrete" rotation you said you WERE using. That is, after someone sings, they go to the end of the line behind any newcomers who are waiting. NO??? Well, at least that is the description we were provided for the "theme park" approach.

Congratulations, Marty. You have figured out how the Theme Park rotation is supposed to work. I wish I lived closer to your shows. I don't mind waiting to hear everyone else sing before I get to sing. It only seems fair to me.

I think - One way is the OPEN rotation -meaning all NEW singers keep getting on line as they sign up. SO all new singers who hand in a slip sing before anyones sings song #2... Not a problem with a short rotation

Theme PArk is -- As soon as you sing you get back in line to sing again ..after all slips submitted at that point. New slips and completed singers get on line after you and the system keeps going until quitting time

You got it right Jam. The open rotation is what some people call the concrete rotation. You keep your spot and all new singers are added to the end of the list that is on the board. If enough new singers come in, the person who got there first might never sing a second song. The next to last singer on the board might even be singing and the person who sang first is thinking that he will be up to sing again in 2 songs but then a big group of singers shows up and now that singer has to wait for a dozen new singers. The new singers will hardly wait at all to get to sing while your regular customer who has been waiting for over an hour, just got pushed back another 45 minutes. NO THANK YOU !

while I am still mulling over the possible variations that can occur in either of those two models, the circumstances where there is a large influx of singers at the same time is the one that is most troublesome to just about any methodology.

So.. if I am the last singer in an open/concrete rotation and 10 singers arrive before I finish singing, I will not sing again until the 10 new singers get up PLUS the 9 singers who were originally ahead of me.! Correct?

And in the Make Believe Could Never Exist In The Real World Karaoke Ride model, what is different?

And if there is no difference, then the most difficult challenge in handling a rotation has not been resolved to may satisfaction with the Karaoke Ride model!

Don't care how you do it as long as it is consistant.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

and quickly

I guess if you are currently singing and 10 people walk in --Yeah you're going to have to wait...sucks but FAIR.....

This sounds like a great solution. Now all I have to do is to figure out how to communicate it to the singers....

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

wait a minute

I've requested an explanation of how/why the "Open/Concrete" rotation is really any different from the "Karaoke Ride" model when you get right down to it. Mustangmarty switched to the Karaoke Ride model with rave reviews after doing so.

So, with the scenario I just presented how does one model differ from the other. Mind you, I am not asking this question with objective of changing the reality that someone may have to wait for an additional 10 singers to sing before they get to sing again. I just want to understand what is the difference in the net results using one rotation model vs the other? And.. I am only asking about these two specific models!

Okay ! One more time...Let us picture a rotation with ten people in it to make it simple to understand. Old singers get numbers and new singers get letters.

In the open or Concrete rotation, let's imagine that the 5th singer is singing and 10 new singers walk in and sign up to sing. The first two rotations would now be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J. Singers A-J only have to wait 5 songs before they begin to sing their first songs and singers 1-4 now have to wait 15 songs to start singing again instead of 5.

In the theme park rotation, let's imagine that the 5th singer is singing and 10 new singers walk in and sign up to sing. The rotation would now be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, 1,2,3,4,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,A,B,C,D,E,F. Singers A-J have to hear all ten singers that were there before them before they get to sing. Singers 1-4 are ahead of singers A-J because they got back in line right after they sang their first song and the new singers A-J had to get in behind them.

As you can see, In the theme park rotation, Singers 1-4 get to sing 3 times out of the first forty songs, hence being rewarded for getting to the show early.

In the open or Concrete rotation, singers G-J get rewarded for coming in late because after 40 songs they have sung twice and so have singers 1-4. In the concrete rotation, the early people get screwed.

It's very simple. Whenever a new singer hands in a slip, they get to sing right before the person who is singing when they handed in their slip......in the next rotation. If you hand in a slip when singer 15 is singing, you become singer 14 and a half. This way EVERYONE waits for ONE ENTIRE rotation before they get to sing their first song or their second song. If there are 15 people in the rotation when I hand in my slip, I have to wait for fifteen people to sing before I get to sing. The next person who hands in a slip has to hear 16 people sing before he or she gets to sing. It doesn't matter which person is singing at the time the slip is handed in. If people drop out, they just drop out. Their spot in line doesn't get taken by someone who just walked in and handed in a song slip. When a person gets done singing a song, they know at that point how many people are in the rotation and they can judge how long their wait will be without have to get bumped back further because new singers came in after they had already gotten back to the end of the line.

I personally prefer the Theme Park Line Rotation. It seems the fairest way for EVERYONE. I KNOW THAT OTHER PEOPLE DO IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS. I know that some people think that someone who shows up late won't stay if you don't give them preferential treatment, but like someone else said earlier, They get the message and start coming earlier and they spend more money. If someone just got out of work and they won't get to sing; I'm sorry but you should go to karaoke on your night off. A regular shouldn't get pushed back to make room for someone who shows up late. JUST MY OPINION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE AND NEITHER DO I.

That was a very lucid explanation describing the difference between the "Open/Concrete" vs the "Theme Park" model.

And I thank BFFL for taking the trouble to devise such a succinct example.

Now.. I had thought that I was getting a handle on the difference between the two, and had come to the realization that under certain circumstances that there could be very significant differences between the two.

However, I frankly never considered the very scenario that BFFL used. And it is that very scenario that makes me wonder even more about the dissimilarities between the two models! In fact, with BFFL's example, the outcome can be so alarmingly dissimilar I am not sure why some would like it at all? And BFFL's example is probably a common occurrence.

So, what follows is some food for thought as to why I would hesitate instituting the "Theme Park" model without further personal investigation. BFFL explained that in the "theme park" model early singers numbered 1-4 get rewarded for being early. But what if in BFFL's example singers 4&5 came together? And what if singer 4 wants to leave right after their 3rd turn singing? And what if while singer 4 is up for the third time 10 more singers sign up. When does singer #5 sing next? If I have this figured correctly... the answer is 20 singers later!

So.... there premises I disagree with that were presented along with the above examples that need to be rebutted; some early birds don't get rewarded and might not appreciate the extra turn received by others who arrived when they did and/or the possibility that to catch up to that other singer he/she may have to wait for an additional 20 people to sing. Singers A-J may only have heard singer 5 before all 10 got a chance to sing. Earlybirds may or may not get screwed later in the evening and I am not sure how helpful the "Theme Park"model is in preventing that in ALL circumstances?

And also consider the following:

1) What if the "owners" of slips 1-4 arrived a good bit after the "owners" of slips 5-10? Perhaps the owners of slips 1-4 just got their slips in earlier. That being the case why should slips 1-4 have any extra opportunity to sing as compared to others who actually arrived earlier?

2) And if there is any validity to what I suggested above, what about the owners of slips 5-10, they are early-birds who end up getting punished by the "Theme Park" model, because instead of having just 9 people ahead of them after their first time at bat, the original 10th singer in the rotation will find him/herself behind 19 singers. Anybody who actually arrived early is not going to understand this "new" model and is likely not going to agree with it or be happy about it.

While it may be inherently be fair or fairer than some other models people are used to and accept, I wouldn't want to try to persuade someone experiencing anything similar to the above that the "Theme Park" model makes sense. It doesn't make sense to me under those circumstances and I haven't satisfied myself as yet as to how good it is under most circumstances!

And while I think early birds should be rewarded if at all possible. I accomplish that with two-fers when I can.

And clearly with the "Theme Park" model it is hard to be casual about getting situated and comfortable when you walk in the door. If you take your time handing in a slip, you'll potentially be losing out on at least one turn

And it's also clear that it isn't worth hanging around till the later hours because someone who just walked in could get to sing, relatively speaking, immediately while you await your next term.

In the "Concrete" model, the first rotation stays open until everyone who wants to gets a turn to sing. Now, I know there are problems with this model, as well, but I don't see the "Theme Park" as being a major improvement

And with the public being quite familiar with the "concrete" model the "Theme Park" model would require a great deal more explanation than I'd care to get involved with in the middle of my show if someone challenged me about the rotation! And the last thing I ever want is to lose a customer over my rotation. I can't help it if a customer prefers different equipment, or a different show format, or a different song selection, but I can make sure my rotation appears to be as fair as possible while they're at my show.

So...in MHO... no "Theme Park" rotation for me as of yet. I need to analyze it a great deal more!

If someone goes to a theme park and decides to get something to eat before they get in line for a ride, then they get on the ride later then the people who made a mad dash for the ride and decided to eat at a later time. The theme park rotation is a first come first serve situation where you haven't "come" until you hand in a slip. If you snooze, you lose and it's no one's fault but your own. Like I've said many times before; I usually have my songs picked out before I leave my house, at least the first song and I usually hand the KJ my disc before I even order a beer.

Eric, you seem to just want to be a nay sayer no matter what the topic is lately. I'm sorry that you can't grasp what is a very simple concept the theme park rotation is. If singers 5-10 take 20 minutes to pick out a song and I and 3 other people walk in after they did and get our songs in first, they have no one to blame but themselves. You're not in LINE until you get in the LINE and you haven't gotten into the line until you have handed in a song slip. It isn't based on the moment you walk in the door.

ERIC's QUOTE:
"And it's also clear that it isn't worth hanging around till the later hours because someone who just walked in could get to sing, relatively speaking, immediately while you await your next term."

YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG ERIC. NO ONE GETS TO SING IMMEDIATELY EVER IN THE THEME PARK ROTATION.

I'm finished with trying to educate you. You either don't want to understand or you just can't understand. You will get no more responses from me, eric. I no longer have the patience to suffer your foolishness. Good luck with whatever rotation policy you choose to use.

There is on such thing as a fair rotation system. As long as a system it is consistently implemented, then most will consider it good.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

It shouldn't matter if you've been there since 8pm and hand in your 1st slip at 12PM , YOU SHOULD HAVE HANDED IT IN SOONER !!!! The bottom line is some singers will just have to wait NO MATTER which system you use. Many variables can wreak havoc as mentioned --Large party comes in and 15 people put slips in as soon as they arrive

Consistency is the KEY to any system as well as some COMMON SENSE ..not being flexable iN "certain" situations can be bad.

ie: If I knew of a regular who's been sitting for 4 hours and decides to put up their 1st slip late in the evening right after a party of 10 JUST arrived and submitted slips ..I might try and SLIP the guy in who's been there all night..BUT THATS JUST ME