Karaoke Forums

your are correct that the KJ shouldn't have to worry about water drinkers and non spenders ..EXCEPT

If the perception from the bartender and management is that the "SHOW" or "KJ" attract those types of customers .... they could look for another HOST ???

We have talked about "water drinkers" in the past. Some posters have analyzed the economics of selling bottled water... assuming that the patron is buying said product. Others assume the singer is getting tap water from the bar.

Then we've heard about those who buy one bottle of water and refill it in the bathroom. And we've been told about some who actually bring the bottle from home, having kept it from a previous visit so as to have the "right" brand bottle in their possession, and then refill in the bathroom!

But what has never occurred is a universal understanding among posters that those who discuss, question, complain about water drinkers are using the term "water drinker' as a euphemism for someone who regularly attends karaoke and regularly makes an effort to avoid spending much if any money.

We, as KJ's, often know who those people are. And... if you're packing them in... you can easily ignore the "problem" --- in a packed house it's not likely to be recognized as a problem by you or the wait staff.

How about, however, this scenario:

Your show is at a bar... no food is served
You're doing a 4-hour show for $150
The entire attendance at the bar during your show is 50
There are 15 singers and 10 of their guests included in the attendance figure
The "z" tape during your show is $450
After a month, the owner informs you that the karaoke is a marginal -- the singers and their guests aren't covering the cost of your show AND THERE ARE PEOPLE NURSING A BOTTLE OF WATER ALL NIGHT.
So, you conclude that to cover the cost of your show by those who came for the show ($150 divided by 25) works out to $6 per person (ignoring that $6 is not what the establishment has left after figuring the cost of the drinks)!
Lastly, the owner informs you that it is very likely that your show is going to be canceled due to a lack of profitability!

SO... clearly the management IS going to ultimately address the "issue" of water drinker, as a part of dealing with how they manage their bottom line --- they're going to cancel the show.

NOW... what are YOU going to do? Are you going to continue ignoring the "water drinkers"/non-spenders?

1) Just a point of interest: If the Z is $450 and they are paying you $150, profitability is NOT marginal. They are losing their hat and a**, and will probably cancel that night.


2) You answered your own question. The MANAGEMENT will the one to address non-spenders. I don't set venue policy.

Eric, despite our numerous debates on this subject, per PMs we actually are close to agreement on many parts of this issue. I have no more use than you for non-spenders, except and unless they bring more to a show ( SPENDING friends, for instance) than they themselves are worth.

The biggie is that, as stated above, it's not MY Z-tape. It's not up to me to complain to the management, and it's not up to me to set policy.

Believe me when I tell you that the staff is fully aware of who is and is not spending- no need for me to whine about it.

It's then up to THE MANAGEMENT to set AND implement policy. It is also up to them to make the judgement on whether the freebie singer is a help ( via popularity, word of mouth advertising, or bringing in several paying customers) or whether the singer is just a freeloader.

My job is to run a karaoke show and make sure that everyone is having such a good time that they stay late, and come back again.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the economics I used in the fictitious scenario I concocted. I tried to keep it simple!

And, though it has been ages since I last went to a show like the ones I described back "years ago"; the "management" wasn't "around" at those places to determine that there were freeloaders; I eventually left because of the freeloaders, the shows were only marginal economically or eventually failed! If I had continued going and brought a few others with me.... well.. that would easily have brought in anywhere from an extra $30-$100 per show! The show definitely lost $30 when my wife and I stopped going.

But... While you say management knows who isn't spending... I have never seen any member of management, anywhere, invite a freeloading karaoke singer to leave! So, if they know.... they're not doing anything either!

I am not the spending police. I am hired to provide entertainment, not observe what people are drinking/spending & allow only those who are spending - how am I going to know, ask for a receipt for the drinks they have been purcahsing?
It is the bars responsibility, bottom line. If they are bothered by the water sippers, then THEY need to tell those water sippers to either spend more or beat their feet out the door.

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Lonnie exactly. If they're sneaking in water or soft drinks, and BTW believe it or not some sneak in beer or a bottle of liquor, then it's up to the bar to give them the boot. They want a glass of water, charge them, tap or not.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

OMG, I've got this guy who comes to my shows and never buys ANYTHING.

He's not a bad singer and performer, and I guess he thinks that becuase he's good he doesn't have to spend money.

Not only that, the songs he likes to pick are 6-8 minute songs! "Roundabout", "Last Resort", etc.

He's an older guy, comes dressed in a leather duster (that he never takes off).

He came to my Sat venue, and it was pretty busy. I had 25 singers, and after his first long song I looked at what he had up next... another marathon song. I went to the bar owner who also sings at my show , and was telling him about it. He talked to the barmaid, and no... he hadn't bought a thing.

The owner was like, "Take him off the list if you want... for god's sake, he could buy a coke... or somethings. What an a$$!"

So, boom... I didn't call him up for the rest of the night.

Well, the following week he came to my Monday show and pulled the same thing (I confirmed with the barmaid). It wasn't as busy, and the crowd was enjoying his singing so I let him sing.

Anyone experience anything similiar, and what did you do about it?

Weird.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Koyote

Let me preface anything that follows with the understanding that I believe that every community is clearly different when it comes to karaoke. Consider, addtitionally, the following possible variables before you evaluate the point I am leading up to:

(a)There are but one or two non-spenders in the whole venue throughout the course of an evening
--or---
(b) There are a 1/2 dozen non-spending SINGERS throughout the course of any evening

(a)The management brought in karaoke to entertain its customers and keep them from going down the street where there is entertainment
--or--
(b)The management brought in karaoke to liven up a dead night and hopefully make some money off of it

(a)The place has had a positive history with karaoke
--or--
(b)The place has brought in karaoke for the first time

(a)The place is heavily advertising karaoke
--or--
(b)The crowd for karaoke must be built up through word-of-mouth exposure

(a)The owner went looking for you
--or--
(b)You presented yourself to the owner and sold him/her on having karaoke

Now if you went looking for the "gig", and the place has never had karaoke, and the place is not going to advertise and the owner expects you to turn a dead night into a winner, and you start off slow, and many of your singers aren't spending any money
At some point, as I've seen happen in my community, again and again, the show will be canceled, probably within the first month!

Me... after I print up fliers, free drink cards, table cards, and signs for the venue to put up....after I contact as many people as I can and hand out fliers and free drink cards, I am not anxious to see my efforts be for naught.

When the show is new and tenuous, I am not going to be laid back. And having a handful of people show up who won't spend money cannot contribute to my success. If letting them know that they are expected to spend money drives them away, I am no worse off. If they spend money and return, I have accomplished something and am heading in the right direction.

On the other hand, if I do not discourage the freeloaders, it may appear to others that they do not have to spend much money either. And, as bizarre as it may sound to you, the freeloaders seem to gravitate to one another and might bring in even more non-spenders.

Now, I am not telling any KJ what they should or must do with non-spenders. I am most certain that those of you who are emphatic about avoiding the issue personally and leaving it to management HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT RISK.

And, if you were to come to experience the circumstances I have described and you still don't want to be the "police", I respect your decision though I don't understand how it will benefit you?

When you lose a karaoke job around here because of a poor turnout, not only do you lose the job but it effects your reputation as a desirable karaoke host. So, there could be a double-whammy.

If you don't care if the show is canceled, then leave everything to the management... by all means. But... that decision on your part assumes that management is both aware of the specifics of what's happening and that they have the means to turn non-spenders into spenders. Good luck!

Eric,

My Sat gig is well established. I was lucky enough to inherit it from another KJ who built it up and then when to take on a venue closer to home (its good to have friends)

My Monday gig is new and struggling. The owner has spent money with Google for search preferance... for a year. He's commited to making it work.

This guy is the exception, and really the first time I've encountered something so blatant.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Koyote

So, from your input I gather that you realize that there is a difference in sensitivities regarding freeloaders when running a successful vs a struggling show.

And in effect you give support to my belief that at a struggling show, in particular, it's not too hard to identify the freeloader(s)!

Having reached this point in my thinking, I do want to point out that while I believe that it is my job to discourage freeloaders, I am not going to confront someone who is at my show for the first time about their spending habits. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt!

Oh.... and this is interesting and is solely a reflection of my personal experience, locally. I have seen people who "nurse" a soft drink or water all evening.... I have never seen anyone nurse a beer or cocktail all evening!

What benefit is a singer who doesn't spend a penny in the venue??

I don't care if it's a struggling show or a established show.

People who walk into a BUSINESS with the idea of enjoying the entertainment without purchasing something (anything for heavens sake) are just LOITERERS and would be asked to leave in any other type of business. why should Karaoke Bars be any differant ?

Jam

That's a very interesting question. And I have never understood the attitude of KJ's who turn a blind-eye to such circumstances or those who make excuses for them.

As to making excuses...and I've gone around with some folks about this... here's what is provided in response to your question.

PERHAPS... the non-spender is that designated driver. Well... perhaps they are not?! And as you suggested, spend something, it doesn't have to be on liquor

PERHAPS... there are customers who come in to hear and enjoy the singing of the deadbeat? Well... perhaps there aren't any such customers? And if that's the case, let the venue hire the deadbeat and let him/her entertain one night to see just how much business he/she brings in!

PERHAPS... the deadbeat is a recovering alcoholic and there is no food to order? Well, they can buy 3-4 soft drinks.... they could buy a drink for the KJ, they can buy potato chips. But... IMHO... special privileges don't accrue to recovering alcoholics don't

PERHAPS... the freeloader came with friends? Well... perhaps he/she was alone? And it would be quite obvious after one or two shows who is alone and who COMES IN WITH A GROUP OF FRIENDS! I would overlook one freeloader in a group of four or more!

I've known this guy for a while now... before I was a KJ. I always thought he was a good singer, but never understood the eye rolls from the KJs until he started coming to my show....

He's been twice, and each time pulled the same thing. Even if you are a recovering alcoholic you can buy a soda. There's no excuse for not supporting the venue that is providing the entertainment.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Now there's an idea Lonnie,

We get the bar to issue a karaoke slip for every drink purchased !!

No - I'm just joking - Just joking !!!!!!!

Eric

I understand DESIGNATED drivers who are there with a group drinking --NO problem if they don't drink ALCOHOL.

As a KJ I don't want to waste my time or a SPOT in the rotation for anyone not spending money...Don't care how good they sing ! (of course I am talking about repeat offenders)

And as far as the recovering ALCOHOLIC ....Sure you can sing JUST BUY SOMETHING .....soda....chips.... food..... If you're in a BAR that does not have any soft drinks or food..THEN YOU HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS and maybe as a RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC should not be in any BAR

Here's the deal.... You're a KJ in a bar every SATURDAY ..you know the regulars you also know the people that come in every week and spend nothing and usually end up complaining the most. We're not talking about the NEW guy that comes in one night and doesn't buy anything ..that may happen. I think we should talk about the ones who are there every week and give the show a bad rep?

I don't think you know anything about it, so it might be best to keep your mouth shut.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

-Sorry if I hit a nerve but I don't appreciate your tone -- If you happen to be a recovering alcoholic that freeloads ****FREELOADS ***at karaoke bars than your an idiot plain and simple. If you happen to be a recovering alcoholic that goes out to bars and sings karaoke and SPENDS MONEY theres no problem ... Don't confuse what I'm saying you jackass. Don't get all up with me cause you have a problem.

You tell other people what they should do, then get all upset and call names when they politely suggest something for you to do? Perhaps you might examine yourself.

I say you don't know anything about it because you say partially good information for the totally wrong reasons. You are ignorant of what you speak of, and yet you speak about it anyway.

The point is that the recovering alcoholic is probably best advised to stay out of bars early in sobriety, period. Doesn't matter if they sell food, soft drinks, or hair curlers. That has nothing at all to do with it. If you sing karaoke and have to go without, well it is better to miss out on karaoke than to feed your fatal disease. (This counts for pool and euchre too.)

And if their intent is to *hang out* at the bar or with friends at a bar, irrespective of karaoke or anything else, they are best advised not to. Hanging out is not a good reason -- there are plenty of places to hang out.

But if they have a good grounding in recovery, they can go anywhere if they have a good reason. And singing is a good reason. If they are at all doubtful, they should stay home. And perhaps go with other people who are aware of their problem.

And the final reason you are totally wrong is because every bar sells soft drinks. Without exception. Except for the ones that freely give them away. And the reason they give them away may not be what you think, either. Some bars give soft drinks away free because 1) they recognize that any recovering alcoholics contributed plenty to bars in the past and 2) they don't want to charge people who have suffered as a result of what they sell.

Recovering alcoholics are a tiny percentage of the clientele. Less than one in 50. So what they do has essentially no influence on the business.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Oh man and I was going to stay out of this thread too...

I'm a recovering alcoholic. 14 years of sobriety. And I'm in bars all the time. Even when I'm not working in them.

Mckj57 you put it just right. You gotta be comfortable in your sobriety in order to pull it off. I stayed out of bars the first two years myself. And it was a difficult decision because I was in a band at the time.

I do my best work in bars. But not as a KJ. I'm unafraid to talk to anyone whom I see is struggling with alcohol, even to the point of kicking them out and telling them to stay away from my place. I believe it has made a difference in at least two people. Maybe more.

I'm very aware that I still need to support a room if I'm not hosting. Last week out singing I spent... lessee... $12. Coffee for me, a Marguaritta for a female friend, and tip to the bartender. Not a lot. But something.

And no I'm not going anywhere else with this conversation. Things got so heated the thread had to be locked the last time this subject was breached. Remember guys?