Karaoke Forums

Hi All,

Sorry if this topic has been covered before [as I can't seem to easily get to archive pages 26-160 ], but I read in the older posts a few mentions about the BBE Sonic Maximizer.

What does this actually do? Is it basically the same thing as an Aphex Aural Exciter, adding mid and upper frequency harmonics? Does it do anything else?

Also, according the the BBE website, the Sonic maximizer is good to regain or shape signal between a power amp and speakers. I have a pair of Mackie SRM450s, so it's amp and speakers are already optimized and I'm more than satifised with the sound of my system overall after compression, EQing, effects...is the BBE 882i going to do anything significant to improve my sound?

Since the BBE882i and Aphex204 are around the same price, which would improve the sound better? Any experiences with the Aphex 204 to share?
Or don't bother with these 2 as they're not going to improve an already satisfactory sound system?

thanks

mchin99

Compressed digital sound chops holes in the cycles then compresses the result into a continuos wave again to use less memory. Once compressed the richness of the original sound is lost because the harmonics are lost. The frequency of doing this is called compression rate and absolute min is 128. Higher is better but takes more memory.

Procs inject harmonics back into the sound.Both of these do the same thing but the 204 has more adjustments and also has the big bottom for increasing bass. 204 They are all line levels and cannot be hooked between a power amp and a passive speaker. In fact they are somewhat sensitive to input levels. For older recordings they are absolutely necessary.

CODECS are compression-decompression and they have improved over the years.

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Here is a little ditty that educates a little about the downside of compression. (Note this really doesn't apply to minimal compression of just vocals.)

The Loudness War

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Yea that showed a typical example of 2 big positive and negative spikes. They did look like cymbal spikes to me and that audio didnt seem to match the scope form. With spikes like that if you turn the volume up these spikes exceed the amps capabilities and clips.

This is where a peak limiter is used to limit these spikes then the volume can be turned up. With compression every think is affected and the volume can be turned higher yet. That is why vocal compression is so necessary. Then you can turn the vocal up to get a level to be heard with the music.

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Either will improve the sound, I prefer the BBE over the Aphex because it doesn't add anything to the signal, simply realigns the frequencies for better projection.

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If you manage to trace back any of the posts you'd find I asked alot of questions about the BBE.

Mine arrived recently and today I plugged it in. . . . WOW. I'd recomend it to anyone. . . Other than my JVC karaoke player, I don't think i've loved a piece of equipment more. Everything little sound is enhanced, I'm not a fan of my current speakers. . . but this makes them sound like a dream x

Thanks to everyone who helped me m,ake this purchase.

Ok, I'm going through the more recent posts instead of the really old ones; too much good stuff on this forum

Here is what I read from Lonman on the BBE to one of your posts:

"The BBE <snip> is designed to break up the highs/mids & lows of the mixer output & time aligns them so you get a fuller crisper sound overall."

So just to make sure I understand: the BBE 882i will somehow *change* the timing of the harmonics, whereas the the Aphex 204 will *add* more harmonics? This is why the BBE is a better choice, because both goes at the end of the signal chain before amplication you don't really want to add much to the overall program at that point. Or am I far off with this?

And, does the Aphex also do the time alignment thing, and if so, wouldn't the Aphex be a better buy as it can do both change and add of harmonics?

mchin99

I would absolutely agree about the positives of the BBE. I've never used the Aphex, but would never go back to a non-BBE rig. Even my guitar rig in my band has a BBE.

This is kind of cliche, but it makes it sound as though you had a blanket over your speaker, and you just took it off. Of course, the better the components (speakers, amps, EQ, etc.) you use to begin with, the less noticeable the BBE is.

I use both. BBE into the aphex and returned. On old recordings (worst case) bypassing each has a distinct difference. On mid to highs the BBE usually makes the biggest difference although not all the time. I would be lost without either one.

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Interesting, thanks alot all, I've been wondering about the aphex for awhile now, so I guess bbe and /or aphex may be the last piece of the gear puzzle for me.

Ok, I'll throw out a few subjective thoughts, some are opinions, some will be fact. I'm not here to offend anyone, but I thought perhaps that the other side of the issue should be mentioned. First off, even though I have used the "SonicMaximizer" and the "Aural Exciter" in the past (for many years), I no longer use any such "magic boxes". I learned that as the quality of my equipment improved, and my knowledge of sound expanded, the need for out board "one size fits all" devices vanished. If you will think about it, you will see that these devices are used to try to make up for short comings in the system. Be it poor circuitry in the mixer or poorly designed or implemented crossovers either active or the passive variety in the speakers themselves or possibly even just the drivers are lacking and last but not least, human error. A properly designed, adjusted and operated PA will need no outside help to do it's job. The SonicMaximizer "time aligns" frequencies, so do most crossovers and speaker management devices, the difference being the later two align frequencies the proper way, by individual driver, not just a group of frequencies as the BBE does. I will say the BBE does have a use for processed music such as helping a poor quality MP3. The "magic box" debate has been going on for years and I suspect that it will continue for many more years. The general consensus in the professional audio community is that they are band-aids and have no place in "live" sound applications. Google them, there are ongoing debates all over the net. If you find your system appears to sound better with one, I would suggest that you try to find out what's wrong with your system.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Agreed London.. I have been on other forums in the fray so to speak. Bands or live sound do not need them. If I am playing a Martina McBride cd on my system there is absolutely no difference. Some will state that they will affect good sound. They wont unless they are maladjusted or over driven. I like to run mine with about a -6DB input. With good sound you dont notice any difference.

It's the same way with EFX. They will have no affect on Martina but after a few years of using them you can tell what EFX were used in the original recording because what EFX you apply have no effect. It takes many years to use EFX with different acoustics in different venues.

If I am building a cabinet I have many tools including laser guided table saws. Each tool has it's purpose and a cabinet maker will have all the tools that he needs.

They are a special tool although can be in the system all the time are only used when necessary. Here is a song I might play or even use for fill. It is old Big Band. I make it sound live. Name that tune.

song

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Thanks alot for this. This was my general thought with holding off on getting an aphex or bbe, not knowing exactly how and what they were doing. I don't have any cheapy components in my system, generally think I know I'm doing, and am satifisfied with the sound, so wasn't sure if this will make a huge difference most of time. But adding or changing harmonics? I dunno...I already boost the harmonics around 4k for vocal presence...

<Bump!>

I was at the NAB convention in Vegas last week and noticed the Aphex booth was near mine. During some down time I walked over and started a conversation with one gentleman about the 104 Aural Exciter and whether I should upgrade to the 204. Imagine my surprise when he suggested that the 104 was a great unit and I should just stick with what I had. He could have easily talked me into an upgrade if he wished.

I then asked him to explain the differences between the 104/204 and the BBE Sonic Maximizer products. He went on to give me a very in-depth technical dissertation about how the Aural Exciters do what they do and why the BBE is essentially (in his words) "A simple gated hi-frequency EQ". Interestingly, he also claimed that BBE units intentionally degrade the signal when in bypass mode, so as to make the a/b-in/out comparison more dramatic.

After getting what was essentially a 20-minute processing 101 course, I asked for his card. It was Marvin Caesar...the President of the company! A very down to earth, unassuming man.

Needless to say, I was very impressed. Not many company presidents stand around for eight hours on the show floor answering questions.

Suspicions confirmed.. I used to have links on PRO SOUND WEb about stadium sound systems that had 104's inserted right before the power amps. To me there isnt a controversy. It would be like asking a mechanic if he used a torque wrench. Well yea if Im putting the heads back on.....

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Alright alright. My curiosity has gotten to my better judgement.
I may be aquiring the older Aphex 104, just so I can hear what this thing does to my sound.

So is it supposed to make the just the vocals sound better or the whole mix?

If just the vocals, is it supposed to be in-line/serial to my vocal path (like a compressor), or just parallel - with the aphex processed output mixed into my mix (like a reverb/delay unit)?

If the whole mix, I supposed it has to go inline between the outputs of my mixer to my powered speakers?

thanks

mchin99

That how I have mine...last in the chain before the amp.

It will put more oomph into lower bass without taxing your speakers.

Here is a photo showing where I run a 104. (note the tune and mix settings) For certain singers it will bring them out of the mud and give them "voice"


I run the BBe and Aphex out of main mix. That would be just before the main fader.

104

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Ok aphex the whole shbang it is
thanks for the settings..