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It seems odd to me that Eric seems to attract so many free loaders to his shows. Could it be that the karaoke singers that are big spenders in his area aren't very big fans of his Fender Passport system? Maybe they are the type of people that don't say anything to the KJ about it but feel that it is a sub standard set up and they find a different venue that uses better(in their opinions) equipment.

After a couple of months of dealing with Eric's personality here on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that he can be very stubborn in many ways and maybe this also could be a reason that some people avoid his shows. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that would take advice from one of his customers and change something about the way he does his shows. He can often come across as someone who always has to be right and will often continue to ask the same question in an effort to get a different answer than the one you gave him the first time. This is an effort, I guess, to get you to change your opinion so that you agree with him.

I also realize that my personality can also be abrasive at times, so I don't need to see the pot & kettle references at this time. I'm not the one trying to build a karaoke following of free spenders and complaining about the over abundance of moochers. I'm just saying that MAYBE the only people that are willing to put up with eric are the people that are getting a free night of entertainment out of the deal. The people that are spending BIG MONEY expect a BIGGER SOUND and less DRAMA????? JUST MAYBE

Just maybe, BFFL, still hasn't learned English?

Per BFFL


Per Eric's last post
That quote referring to the problem of non-spenders

I won't even respond to the rest of BFFL crap. And in fact, I first started complaining about these circumstance two years ago as a singer, never having hosted a karaoke show at the time. So.. I speak foremost as a singer and not a host. Oh,,, yeah, I could just see BFFL waiting patiently through a rotation of 15 singers, knowing 5 of them haven't spent a dime all night. Right! He can't countenance filler music interfering with his turns. Me... I stopped attending those shows because I wouldn't tolerate that BS!

And the rest of you KJ's.... just keep your head in the sand. I have seen non-spenders destroy karaoke shows.... then the management cancels the show go... and who is to blame.... the kj and KARAOKE patrons. NOT THE MANAGEMENT.

And why do I suggest management is not to blame, well, when I beat the bushes, as I do on occasion, to find a new gig there isn't a time when I don't run into a manager who says... Karaoke... oh no! They don't spend any money, they're water slurpers!

Now... if you think I am being stubborn... perhaps you have it backwards. I am enlightening you about a reality that you refuse to accept exists. I KNOW MANAGEMENT CANNOT SOLVE THIS PROBLEM, I've observed it happening over and over to shows I have attended (not hosted). Hence the reaction form local managers "Karaoke.. oh no.. no way.. they don't spend any money they're water slurpers!

Clearly, those who say go to management "suffer" from one or the other of the following or both:
1) being too closed-minded to accept that a problem they have never seen and never experienced could ever effect them or any other kJ on the forum
2) being too intimidated to take matters into your own hands and, possibly, chase off some singers, permanently (never to reappear at any of you shows again)
3) believe that patrons of karaoke are like followers of bands.. well they're not. As shown here.. there are those who believe that they have a right to sing karaoke and do so several times a week and OH YES... don't spend any money or nurse a water all night. Doesn't sound like your typical band groupie to me!

And clearly many posters can't assimilate the fact that what I am posting is not for my benefit... nor am I chicken little. Come to Fl, and with just a little effort I should be able to demonstrate to you the sky that has already fallen on Karaoke where fewer and fewer of those looking to hire entertainment want to try karaoke. And few who have had tried it want it back!

Right, go to management... or call the police... that will surely solve what for karaoke?

What's the use... why I am I arguing with people who think the world is flat? And that everything that they have experienced is everything there is to experience? And then its'suggested that I am stubborn?

What have I been stubborn about? Telling people that they may want to consider other avenues of response? Telling folks that I have good reason based upon experience for not relyin upon management to resolve the problem if I should ever encounter it? Or perhaps, for suggesting to KJ that they might want to re-consider their thinking in that regard?

And since I disagree with the advice that the only correct answer is "Go To Management" ... I am stubborn. I get it! And those who disagree with me are --- not stubborn? Although, those who disagree with me have never encountered the problem I have pointed out. So, those with the least experience know the most?

Pray tell, to the "go to management camp", what do you hope to accomplish with that posture?

I wouldn't waste your time. It's a clear case of following only one set of directions:

1. Find sandbox.
2. Insert head.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

and of course, experience has revealed that some of those who in effect side with the non-spenders have sat or now sit squarely in their midst = they believe that karaoke is a hobby that they can pursue at no cost to them.. let everyone else pick up the tab for them... and such people are usually the most outspoken .... ah but they tip well, or so they say

Your Honor, I REST MY CASE.

Again Eric, because you seemed to miss my answer, the solution to your problem is simple. If they don't buy anything, don't let them sing.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Per timberlea's posts MAR 01

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PER ERICLATER FEB 24



per timberlea FEB26th

Prior to today's post Timberlea... there was but one course of action recommend by you!
And.. considering that in your post of Feb26th you indicate that you are suggesting ONCE AGAIN to leave it to management, a reasonable person would be correct in inferring that as of Feb 26th, after several posts by you, that your only recommendation is just that --- leave it to management. And that is a course of action I totally reject!

It wouldn't matter to me if I did experience the problem or not, it would not be my responsibility at all to tell who could or could not sing, that would be up to the bar staff/management - actually I did experinence ONCE a coupld that came in, brought THEIR OWN cans of soda, sang 2 songs & left, I asked the bartender about it & he said that night he wasn't worried about it, so I let them sing. If THEY told me that someone couldn't sing because they weren't spending money, then I may take it into consideration. But if THEY are allowing it to happen, then I am doing what I am hired to do - ENTERTAIN! Nothing more. If I get let go because the crowd isn't spending, then maybe I would look at the way I am running my show & try to do something different to attract 'spenders'. Or would look at it as the bar isn't concerned about these non spenders & maybe it's time to move on to another bar that is & won't tolerate the non spenders taking up the seats when others will. You can put blame on non spenders all you want, but ultimately it's the bar/club that either allows it or not - not YOUR responsiblity!

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Because I am hired to entertain, not police what people spend, THAT is the bars responsiblity!

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As Lonman put it, THE BAR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT. Not me. I have had one instance where a person became a "karaoke freeloader". That person was told BY THE BAR STAFF that loitering was not allowed. He decided to start ordering food, since he didn't drink. Problem solved. Bar management that gives away free water/soda to anyone that asks is the problem.

I don't, nor have I ever, had an instance of "freeloaders" causing a major problem. If they want to sing, I let them. If the bar has a problem with them not spending, they handle it. If I can't do a show good enough to get "spenders" in the bar, then maybe that bar isn't the place for me.

What if one of your friends came in and they wouldnt serve him because he wasnt singing?

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Some posters have suggested that I have my head in the sand regarding this topic... No.... someone who ignores a problem has their head in the sand. And some, I guess, think that ignoring a problem will cause it to go away.

As to how I would feel if the people I am trying to effect a change in are MY friends...Well, I know each one of the people (freeloaders) I am speaking of, by name... I am greeted warmly by each.... I used to see them frequently when I regularly attended karaoke.. I like each and every one of them personally...Nonetheless... I have seen them destroy one karaoke show after the other...AND IT IS NOT my responsibility to explain to the KJs who keeps losing gigs what has happened, or that it is because of the freeloaders that I no longer come to their show (because I used to regularly get calls from them to "remind" me about their shows)

I guess most of you will never "get it". I am trying to help you to protect your business and you're telling me.... you'll leave protecting youe business to management... who... will fire you when they fail in protecting YOUR business. But, of course, so long as you can only relate to the world of karaoke as you know it.... what can I say.

Now, consider this real life scenario and digest and understand for yourself why management is not going to "save" you

Fact 1… Venue is a restaurant. Seating would be 80 or so.
Fact 2… Average number of people in attendance who are not specifically there because of karaoke… 25-30
Fact 3… Average number of people in attendance specifically for karaoke 15-25.
Fact 4…. Average number of singers 15
Fact 5 Average number of freeloading singers 5

Now the venue has tables for four. However, as the karaoke group starts to arrive, some will butt two tables together providing seating for 8-10.

As the freeloaders come in, they are known to and welcomed by all, and seat themselves among the “paying” karaoke customers.

Then the waiter/waitress comes over to newly seated freeloader… “Can I get you something?”
Freeloader responds… “Nothing now. Maybe I’ll get something later?”
Meanwhile everybody else at the table has already ordered dinner.

A few minutes later, two more freeloaders arrive together and are welcomed by and invited to join another already seated group. The waitress comes over… same thing, or perhaps one orders coffee and the other a bottle of water to nurse all night.

And then there might be one or two who don't find anywhere comfortable left at a table and just stand around.... not attracting any waitperson to even acknowledge them.

So... in actuality, it’s not likely that management would even take notice to what has happened. And, "no" I, as the KJ, wouldn't have to ask anyone for a receipt for their purchase in such an environment to know who is freeloading. If I cared to take note of it, and I do, I would know if ANYONE wasn't spending. And as to the "freeloading regulars", I just have to see their faces to know that they are in attendance!

And, lastly, as I noted in a prior and a previous post... the fact that I plan to react to freeloaders would not make me a "lone wolf" here in S Fl. I know of several shows KJ's who don't accept freeloading; one of them being a fellow with a dozen or so gigs every week! And that KJ hires hosts to run those gigs and the hosts are trained to discourage freeloaders!

So, I to end my participation in what has once again become a fruitless effort to enlighten some about a potential problem, would someone who is an ardent "leave it to management" proponent explain to everyone else how ANY KJ with a new and/or struggling show is going to benefit from following you advice under the above and/or similar scenarios? And, furthermore, explain why you feel your advice is superior to the policy of the KJ with a dozen shows each week here in S Florida who takes it upon his shoulders to intervene with freeloaders?

OH and for those who consider themselves to be entertainers, I consider myself to be a businessman FIRST. And as a businessman my first responsibility is to MY business.. not to the management of the bar and definitely not to deadbeat singers - even just one deadbeat if I believe that the problem is MY problem.

Eric I will share something with you.

I am 69 I sit here sun morning wondering how Im going to pay the rent. No gigs and I drank myself broke. I am an alcholholic.I have fought it for years. Eight years karaoke was the only outlet I had that could keep me off the booze. As I said in another thread I told how I paid my way doing things beside sitting there drinking.

I am sitting here trying to get my thoughts and plans together. What bars to approach for a gig. Two songs and my mind would be clearer and I would have some strength in this old body. Those two songs would be better than 2 shots or beers.

I share these things not to prove anything or change any minds but if it gives some an understanding about not drinking at karaoke then it is worth it.

My name is Ollie I am an alcolholic......

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Eric, nice avoidance. So what about the do not let the freeloaders sing solution. Or is that good enough for you either.

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Timberlea

Are you kidding me? Surely you're not going to tell me that using the rotation as a tool against freeloaders was first brought up by you?

Did you not see my post early this morning at 2:14am where I copied a post I had made on February 24th. And THAT Feb24th post I pointed out that there are KJ's her in Florida that already deny freeloaders a turn in the rotation. I think it should be obvious to anyone, since I pointed that fact out, that such a policy is quite acceptable to me and will be part of my strategy Unfortunately, people just skim threads and/or read posts through a prism slanted by their own experiences, and miss a great deal.

And as another example of that "prism", earlier in this thread, someone ASSUMED that something I had posted related (solely) to a bar environment, when it had nothing at all to do with a bar. And I believe that you, Timberlea, have been assuming all along that I have been suggesting that KJ's throw freeloaders out. I never said anything like that or implied anything like that.

Now, as to side-stepping, I have side-stepped nothing! You, however, as a proponent of the "leave it to management" school has yet supported your business plan. So, I ask again, please explain how that posture ---- leave it to management==will benefit the KJ/businessman?

Ollie

You've got a few years on me, but just a few. And, my friend, I most definitely understand the views of every other person..... and... I believe I understand their motivations. Lastly, I am not cold-hearted.. but I am first and foremost a business man and a successful one. And let me note that successful business people have failures, which they learn from just as they do from their successes!

Now, Ollie, before I go into a specific response to your remarks, let me do something you have done.. provided credentials.

I am a CPA. I have a BS from NYU and a MBA from Fordham Univ
While in my undergraduate program I worked on Wall Street for Solomon Bros, an Investment Banking Firm (not stockbroker).
Upon graduation, I received an employment offer, which I accepted, from Price Waterhouse, the most prestigious public accounting firm in the world.
After spending 3 years in public accounting (a pre-requisite for becoming a (CPA) I went to work for a succession of fortune 500 firms first in financial and then general management!

So... there is no input that anyone can provide to change my opinion that what has destroyed some karaoke shows and injured the reputation of karaoke in S FLorida is not a problem to contend with. And no one will convince me it is wise for any KJ to ignore the problem before it becomes malignant. Going to management is not going to do a thing to curtail it. And, even if it did, the problem would likely move elsewhere. And I am not advocating the relocation of deadbeats, but rather, their reeducation!

Now, Ollie, we've have discussed the joy of singing. And everyone is entitled to experience such joy and should give themselves permission to do so. However, however, as you indicated in your post and so many others have indicated similarly in the past... there seems to be a mentality among some Karaokers, that if they are on the WAGON they have a good/legitimate reason for not spending money at karaoke... and that their reason trumps all else.

Well, perhaps it does? Now what if 15 people with the same reason showed up at the same karaoke show, at the same time. And what if they chased away 5 spending customers who didn't like the size of the rotation? Or what if they chased off one spending customer who didn't want to wait in line behind deadbeats?

In short, deadbeats consider no one but themselves --- their wants and needs only! From my point of view, if I am waiting in a rotation I don't know the deadbeat's "story". I see the same person/people showing up at the same place, spend little or nothing, and derive the same benefit as I, while I am spending money which insures that the freeloader(s) will have a place to return to the next time!

And, I don't believe that management is responsible for such bad behavior anymore than the gun shop owner is responsible for a homicide committed with a gun he sold. The freeloaders know full-well what they are doing! Management did not put up a sign "Enjoy Karaoke --- Oh and don't spend any money while doing so" Management just assumes that people, generally speaking, will play fair and spend some money... which is the unwritten rule. And so often in life we are governed by unwritten rules... like don't cut in line.

And let's not get bogged down discussing some occasional, "unknown" singer who shows up one time or once in awhile. The person who doesn't seek out karaoke, rarely sings at karaoke and doesn't spend any money when they do is not, to me, a problem! Rather, I have always asserted that I am concerned with the habitual, flagrant, intentional deadbeat! The person who thinks karaoke is all about them... some even think that they are so good that they should get paid, rather than vice-versa

And, to me, the whole subject becomes quite simple when one removes "I" from the discussion and thinks solely about the viability of karaoke and what is the "right" thing for everyone to do who wants to join in on and keep karaoke prosperous!

Hey, he thinks he has a right to buy a Fender Passport and attract a free-spending crowd. It may be delusional, but this is America. I suggest a lawsuit.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Inane remarks don't hide ignorance, they highlight it

Eric, we have a show that is failing and getting a bad rep due to freeloaders. I didn't even know it until recently because we had an increasing body count and I thought we were doing well. When I heard the owner was complaining that we only took in $170 I did the math and found that to be physically impossible for the number of people we had in there. But why do I still think its a management problem? Because it was the owner and evidently also the bartendress that was comping the regs when they lost their jobs--"Thanks for carrying in that keg," "Can you run to the mini-mart for ice?" etc.

If the bar owner was letting people freeload, then I could do nothing as far as rotation policies, announcements, etc. to make people buy drinks. I planned to talk to the bar owner and tell him that under those circumstances, we didn't want to be blamed for the bottom line. The bartendress was a touchier subject as she is a neighbor and we didn't want to get her in trouble. So I would have to talk to her privately about how she was making us look.

But the next week we came in and we had a new bartendress. So management WAS doing their part to manage the money end and they took care of it. My point is that if management isn't doing their part of the deal, they will probably let you down in other ways also and it is difficult for the KJ to overcome that on their own.

Of course the upshot of all this is our body count dropped dramatically and now we get to start over--with the encumbrance of being replaced once a month by a singing cowboy. (who does bring in a huge crowd but sucks them all from the more successful Friday karaoke show who ended up with six singers last time this happened.) That's another matter.

Eric I have degrees too. I have been going in bars for 60 years I have also been in bars all over the world. I have bartended and managed bars. I know the bar business in and out. About 20 years karaoke. I have sang with bands.

When I work in a bar and the till is less than a grand Im looking to see whats wrong and the owner/mngr and I are talking about things. In my case it isnt owner or I solving prob lems it is a team responsibility. If something is wrong lets not try to blame any one person or thing. 98% of the bar/owner problems here I could solve in one night.

I have never seen a bar shutdown because people wasnt drinking but I have seen many shutdown if everybody was.

We have taken over bars that were on the verge of being shutdown due to drugs or abuse and in a few months had a more mellow crowd and the cops were amazed. We didnt do it with drunk singers. When we got done the bar was making money again.

You are putting all the blame on one factor which I have never seen as a problem. Give me 5-10 good sober singers and I will SRO the place.

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