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Eric I have no idea what your problem is. You complain about freeloaders and when any idea comes up you seem to reject it out of hand. If you have freeloaders you have two choices. Let management handle it or not let them sing. Further if it is that bad in your area then move to greener pastures. Most places may have a few freeloaders but too few to worry about. So why go on ad nauseum about it.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Hey Timberlea....................here's why:

Because he likes to see himself (or listen to himself) type!!

Its the ONLY POSSIBLE LOGICAL REASON THAT MAKES ANY SENSE!!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

How about a very simple solution??????? A $20 or $25 minimum per person on karaoke nights if you plan on staying for over an hour and you plan on singing OR listening.

Re just a few freeloaders not being a problem--I said this last go'round but I will repeat. We have a friend who is such a confirmed water drinker that she even tries to get around the bottled water thing by asking for water in a glass with ice. We don't know why she does this as she is an ex-waitress who ought to know better. But she does.

She does, however, wear really feminine nice clothes, has a big smile always, introduces herself to everyone and has the men dancing with her and buying her drinks in no time. She takes her drinks as tokens which she keeps as souveniers because she only drinks water.

She made the 2 hour trek to our show once and I warned the bar tendress about her and offered to pay something to cover her while she was there. But she had been so good for business, at the end of the night the bar tenddress said she had no problem with her at all. We used to joke that if we could rent a dozen of her, we'd have the most successful show in town.

Then what is YOUR solution to making it all go away. What are you going to do about it IF the management KNOWS and does nothing?
If management is allowing these people to sit without spending, it is managements problem - period! You can make drink announcements over the mic, call attention to the staff, call out specials, but not much else. If management isn't going to do anything about it, then I would start looking for another club because they will eventually blame karaoke not bringing in spenders while all in all it may hav been true but they ALLOWED that kind of patron to continue to frequent without saying anything.

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leopard lizard said:
So what's the problem? Bring a glass with ice, a bottle of water and let the server "decant" it for her... she gets her water, glass, ice and the club still gets to charge...

In this case, the club fully approves of her actions so it should be no biggy...

Lon's got it EXACTLY right.

Club management ALLOWS the people to stay.

Therefore it is THE CLUB MANAGEMENT's POLICY to allow them to be there.

You can notify, make announcements, point out etc etc. But if the bar wants the people there or allows them to stay, END OF DISCUSSION.

They appear mostly to be concerned with not OFFENDING customers and running them off the property. Who knows, maybe they are friends with the owners or some other thing you're not aware of.

Not the KJ's place to take the role of enforcer and try to decide who stays and who doesn't and then try to bounce them himself.

If you're not comfortable with, disagree with or have concerns about the bar managements policies then either get with THIER program or find another bar.

Or better yet go OPEN YOUR OWN BAR and do the things you describe and see how well you run it yourself.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Yet majority of the time they don't do ANYTHING but whine & (@$%&#!) that these people aren't spending. It's your bar you moron, you have the right to tell them to either buy something or leave. But they don't want to look like the bad guy & put responsibility or blame elsewhere - 9 out of 10 times they blame the entertainment when we are doing exactly what we are hired for. Provide entertainment.
The bar provides the other services & should have the guts enough to tell the non-spenders to either support or scat.

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What does the food and beverage manager say? What is his polocies regarding bandmembers or karaoke singers drinking or spending money? What about the paticipants in the pool and dart leagues. Do they still get their free shot? Do they have to drink? Lets have the 100 prople sitting there listening vote. Should the karaoke singers have to spend and if so how much do they have to spend per hour to retain their spot in the rotation.

We had 4 singers in here sat night that didnt spend and the till dropped from $2700 to $2650..OMG I have never seen anything like this in our area. The small bars here are social gathering places. There are old grannies that come in and dont have to spend to be welcome. I have tried real hard to imagine a bar suffering because of singers not spending and I cant fathom it. I can only assume that you are fantasising or have a gig in a bar that is on its last leg and need 4 more drunks to keep it afloat. Or maybe these are Rituals in your religion.

tBottom line is I am under contract to provide a karaoke host and entertainment. I do not assume the responsibilities of the food and beverage manager else I will want about twice what I am getting. From comments made here I can also assume you have never had a gig in a bar that even came close to a grand on the till. That is my minimum goal and usully far exceed that like about 2-3 grand.

My owner needs a good laugh I can give you the bars phone number and give him your story. There will be about twenty seconds of silence then laugher. It is public if you really want to call and make a fool out of yourself it is Shorty's Grill 3315 35th Evans Colorao. Ask for Dave.

I go along with these fanatasies just for entertainment and get a look into other areas But this is extreme, at least in this area. I am real right now and if you need advise I can offer my small bar mngr expertise although it sounds like it exceeds expertise out there.

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Listen... "IF" non money spending SINGERS are a problem for your show
You are all wrong...Its not the managements problem or the KJ's problem ..It becomes BOTH or ALL of our problems ..... If you see it happening on a repeat basis ..Talk to the manager or owner ... Get all the cards on the table and discuss a plan of action or a policy. Thats the best approach to many problems.
If the management is OK with it ..no problem //right?

There's no need to insult someones equipment to make a point..thats just classless and rude.

Actually jam the only time I could envision it would be an issue or topic of discussion would be at a very small bar. This would have to be with a very low seating capacity and no food service. We have hosted these places and never had this problem although normally it would be addressed by bar management. I can see where in a rare instance it might be discussed by host and staff but never initiated by the host.

In larger venues where food is served it would not be an issue. In my last post I was being facetious but in a large motel chain the food and beverage manager is the one that hires the entertainment, sets prices etc and even the lounge manager would have no say let alone the host regarding this matter. We would be concerned with over imbibers not under imbibers.

As stated I am contracted to provide a host or entertainment.That is my primary function. With bar experience I might help with secondary functions such as watching for drugs or other potential problems. I will not be monitoring what my singers spend and put restrictions on them and do not ask me to or you will have a fight on your hands.

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Likewise.... I have maintained that it is not difficult at all to identify the people who come week in and week out and spend virtually nothing.



It is clear that some of you think, out of your own ignorance, that all of my posts in this regard have been for my benefit; I assure you that it most definitely hasn’t benefited me one bit. So, again, why do I make posts regarding the problem? Because I am waiting for someone to display an ounce of wisdom, as has Lonman, to ask what might be done? Meanwhile, I have given up expecting any worthwhile feedback from the forum on what can be done in this regard. Most of you don't get it!

Now, frankly, there are others working on the problem with me, including JoeChartreuse from the forum via PM's. And one approach that is already in use, leaving deadbeats out of the rotation, has already been presented by me to this forum during past discussions and within this thread, as something already implemented by some of us here in FL!

And... while my original attempts to enlighten KJ’s about this problem came from my perspective as I singer, I AM NOT concerned about this problem as a KJ!

Why? Because as the KJ I AM IN CONTROL! And the freeloaders, simply put, want to sing and enjoy “their moment in the sun" as do the paying singers. However, as the KJ I have "the keys to the realm" and with those keys I have prepared myself for the day that I might have to deal with the freeloaders.

Why am I prepared? Two reasons: I have seen shows destroyed by the freeloaders and because the freeloaders have "threatened" to come to one of my shows IF/WHEN I have a show that doesn't conflict with where they are now going. We know each other and they like what they have heard about my shows!

And what might I do?

-Most of them bring their own discs.... I may suddenly have a malfunction regarding playing discs

-Most of them are quite concerned about the integrity of the rotation - I may have several "brain farts" in that regard, and skip over some of them

-Perhaps the tempo and/or key of the songs that they request gets input incorrectly into the computer?

-Perhaps, if they don't bring discs or I "can't" play them, I queue up a different version or a less desirable version of the song they request? And I could tell them, in that regard, that their requested version was corrupted?

-Or, perhaps I could inform them that "this venue" expects singers to "carry their weight, or they'll cancel my show". So... I'll suggest that if they have no money I'll be happy to buy them some snacks or a drink (or two) to cover them for tonight. Even if I did have to spend $50 or so on 4 or 5 of them, the point that I will have made would be worth it to me! And they'll realize that it wouldn't be comfortable for them to return unless they intend to spend money when they do!

-And if they did return and expected to freeload.... I would then INFORM management that I will be skipping them in the rotation altogether!

For the very first time I will say some things in a very direct way
1) You're foolish to assume that if you know of a problem that management also is aware of it
2) You're foolish to assume that a problem should be left unattended to if management is aware of it and ignores it
3) If any problem is going to effect the future existence of YOUR show and you have the means to alleviate the problem, it would be FOOLISH of you to give up your control and leave it to management. However, if you believe that management is actually going to handle it or would object to what you plan to do and why you plan to do it and you would rather not get fired for doing it… then wait until you get fired for not doing it. Whichever way you prefer! Because if you find yourself in the SPECIFIC circumstances I have described your show will not last!

1. If a bar isn't aware of what's happening then they are pretty stupid and shouldn't be in business.

2. If management wants to ignore what they've been made aware of, it's their problem and may have their own reasons for doing so.

3.Now if you don't want the "freeloader" then have the guts to tell them if they don't buy, you don't sing. Don't do the chicken$h!t crap like forgetting the singer, change kets, etc. That makes you look unprofessional.

If anyone has shows in a place that is that bad, then my suggestion is to look for greener pastures.

BTW I will be posting a threat to ask hosts how bad are freeloaders at their venies.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I think that if you as the kj bring the issue of freeloaders to management and make them fully aware of it and they do nothing.... what the heck are you supposed to do. I mean the announcements for patronizing the establishment are great and I try to even be creative by working with the bartender and selling "karaoke shots", etc. But if your doing your job as a host and pointing out the freeloader problem to mangaement and they "let it slide" your next option may be seeking employment elsewhere.
I think going to the extremes you are talking about Eric... changing keys, not offering to play discs, etc are unwarranted and will end up making you seem unprofessional. Could actually cost you a gig if a potential client is in the audience and witnesses this nonsense.
You seem like a control freak. I think thats maybe why your so engrossed with this freeloader nonsense. All you can control is what you can control. Aside from opening your own place your in a bad way.

There is no doubt that one has to be careful about maintaining ones reputation... so...wrong keys and the like have to be done sparingly and carefully.

Again... you can rely on management, but management is the one who will be firing YOU when the show fails.

And since, again, I am not talking about isolated incidents to be concerned about but, rather, ongoing patterns of behavior. And I have already described earlier in this thread why these patterns don't get noticed right away by management or most anyone.

It took me a few weeks as a singer to figure out that some of my "karaoke friends" were deadbeats. Once I figured it out, I stopped frequenting those shows because it wasn't my responsibility to support the singing habits of others. And then a few others followed suit and stopped frequenting the show.

By then, the management couldn't help but realize that karaoke wasn't really working for them...it went from being a marginal to a losing proposition. So, the show was canceled.

Then the KJ eventually finds another venue and ends up with two shows a week there. I checked both shows out and found the same dynamics in play with the same freeloaders..... after 6 months that venue was sold and the karaoke canceled.

You can disparage management all you want... say that they shouldn't be in business all you want. So What?

Does that make your karaoke show more successful if you're the KJ?
Does it help your reputation to have it said that your following is a bunch of deadbeats (owners do ask for references at times)
Does it help karaoke when deadbeats flourish to the point that venues avoid karaoke and its water slurping clientele

So... say what you want about incompetent managers... but, remember, they have no control over the future of karaoke or the reputation it develops.

Remind me to cross florida off my go to list. Damn it and we had fun in fort lauderdale headed for the carribian

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No, Ollie, just let me know when you're ready and I'll take you in Ft Lauderdale to where we will have fun..and everyone else will be half our age!

Eric one of the fondest memories I have is a wild weekend in FT Lauderdale. Well that is what I remember!! We were headed for a shake down cruise and last port in conus for awhile. We made the most of it.. We had a lot of new recruits and I spent one night on shore patrol.

They had no seaman qualified for helmsman I drew a turn as a second class petty officer. A green horn officer looked back into the pilot house and said I can not hear you!! The boatsnmate on watch grinned because he knew me. I started screaming right full rudder aye sir The captain came out of his cabin and asked wat the hell is a petty officer doing on the helm? Yes that little icon I use means a lot to me I am a qualified helmsman on light cruisers or any ship for that matter. The hardest was in the North Sea by Scotland headed into the circle.

Request permission to relieve the helm SIR Steering course 160 using starboard unit and cable. Twenty bells rang up for twenty knots SIR Request permission to relieve the helm SIR..

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The last two options sound workable to me, but having equipment malfunctions, key/tempo slips, etc, sound like too much work when a simple word or two will get the job done. In my opinion, when you fiddle with the someone's song, it just makes it very uncomfortable for thw whole audience. I've seen things like this before and I think to myself "Why doesn't the kj just make himself clear to the singer what he wants instead of using subtle psychological warfare?"

Most recent case in point was a guy a week ago who sang the Bohemian Rhapsody. This was the first time (first night) I'd ever heard this singer, and he's one of the better male singers I've heard. The kj, however, didn't appreciate him picking a long song in the middle of the show, so the kj bumps the player half way through the song and it skips. The singer keeps singing, and like I said, he's a good singer and I'm enjoying the song. When the singer is done I hear the kj hiss to him, "Guess we won't be doing that one again!" Spare us the drama! If you don't want the song sung, take it out of your book. Or inform the singer when he brings the slip up that you won't do that song, case closed, no questions asked. But don't subject everyone else to subtleties and clue-servings that even the newbie singer may or may not understand. It creates tension in the room, is disruptive to the show, and detracts from the evening.

Seattle

You may be right... and I do fear that some of these techniques could harm my reputation. But... in the absence of much input from others, I've been fending somewhat for my self in this regard. My business partner has never encountered the freeloaders I am experienced with and so we just hypothesize together, but agree that freeloaders are not welcome!

And... I face the additional challenge in that I know who the people are that I am watching out for... they're not strangers to me... and that they most likely will show up one day! And I know they've been "coddled" where they usually go! I don't believe that simply telling them that they are welcome is the answer... I'm just hoping that they don't/can't show up. Furthermore, there are some "freeloading groups" I am not acquainted with personally!

Oh... not playing their discs will work because..... they all have discs and most shows around here DON'T/WON'T play discs. So I can easily and comfortably disappoint them in that way!

Thanks for the feedback, it's much appreciated!