Karaoke Forums

Here I have decided to put it to a poll.

Should you first have to submit a song prior to being able to comment/rank?

What I would like to see is not only your opinion in the poll, but please provide comments with your reasons why they should or shouldn't.

Many thanx,

Phill

Hi Phil,
I am new here and I chose the "anyone can" option. If I had had that option, I might not have posted a song so soon. Many people just love listening to the different singers, I know I do. And if someone doesn't like to sing, it doesn't seem fair that they are unable to leave some feedback. Anyway, I will be happy to go along with whatever you decide.
Take good care,
SL

Hi Phill,
I agree with SweetestL, as long as a user is registered they should hava an option to leave a comment or a ranking. I have had my first song posted now for several days and still cant comment on others work. So far I have only recieved one comment on my song and I think I might have gotten more if anyone could comment.

Thanks,
KJ

Hi Phill,

I think that any Registered Member should be allowed to comment/rank a song. There may be members here that are to shy to post a song, or
simply don't have the equipment to do so.

Just my 2 cents,

Lee

I see many have voted but only a few have commented!

BTW - I have now removed this restriction, but I would still like to know what everyone thinks?!

Phill

I'm kinda on the fence with this one. So I'm going to put it all out there for discussion... The Admin could:

- Allow anyone to COMMENT and RANK... Running the risk of unfair or revenge RANKs.. Which I understand is now happening... However, with proper monitoring/investigation/mediation that could be corrected. For instance, restricting permission and/or banning member suspected of abusing priviledge.

- Restrict non-Premium Members to COMMENT ONLY. Allowing them to type rank in COMMENTS... Again, comments wouldn't affect rank. Admin would have the ability to remove comments which violate community standards.

- Restrict RANKING to Members who have posted a song. This is good for reference purposes.. but just because someone posted a song doesn't qualify if they are a good judge of talent. It's just a priviledge for contributing a song.

Depending on how sophisticated the programming can be...What if for security purposes you created another class of "verified" users... giving RANKING privs only to folks who register with a verified billing method. You could run a $1 auth on the card or charge a nominal fee to RANK. This should cut down on multiple accounts from the same person.

I was also thinking... What if the ranking system was changed to count DOUBLE from folks who are PREMIUM members who posted a song. This could be a membership reward for having contributed a song, and more importantly money, to keep this site up and running? Premium members would also appear as a different color or in italics or uniquely ID'd so folks would be aware that they are PREMIUM members and their ranking counts double.

Thats all I could come up with for now at 4am in the morning.

JW |;>

There is no sure way to prevent this from happening at all. It would take alot of extra work by the admins to police all voting to watch for revenge/unfair rankings. And who is to say a vote is invalid or unfair? Remember, musical taste is completely subjective. A user could complain that they didn't like a rank by a particular user but when the admins listen to the track and agree with the rank, what then? True, non-paying members are more apt to abuse than paid ones. So here's one idea:

What about a multiple-tier voting system? Rankings could be based on level, non-paid member votes seperate from paying members. So a submitted song would have 2 rankings. Maybe combine them for a general overall site ranking (which may defeat the purpose of seperating them in the 1st place but a good song is still a good song...if members can get both ranks high, then they are really accomplishing something). Otherwise, paid members can base their rank on how the paid members have voted.

One option for this could also be to let the paid members choose whether or not to allow 'public' ranking (both non-paid & paid member ranking), as opposed to 'private' ranking (paid member ranking only). You have to figure not every paid member will utilize this option, which will keep it interesting enuff for the non-paid members.

Restricting non-paying members from voting or commenting will only force them to leave and go elsewhere, which will happen if they are shut out of the things that make this site appealing to them. Giving the paid members the extra choice might be that little incentive to stay involved instead of getting frustrated with bad ranks.

Enjoy the site!

WOW!

Those are some excellent comments and ideas!

I will take these into consideration. or is that under advisement?

Seriously, I think that we could implement these to create a site that everyone enjoys...

Keep the ideas and comments coming.

Phill

'Should people rank only if they have submitted a song?'
Thats a good question.
A tough one.
I am new.
I have submitted a song.
I have ranked others.
Should I have been able to rank and comment on someone without putting my song out there?
No, for myself, I believe that I should be able to take constructive (key word) criticism as easily as I dish it out!
Do I want others to rank me that don't have a song out there?
Absolutely, I know several people that don't sing.. They still love to listen to music and can share their opinion of what they like. They may not be able to share experience, but they can tell me what they hear and what they think needs improving.
Do I want someone to rank me that I haven't given a '10' to?
Originally my naive self thought, 'of course, people would be honest, not vindictive. If people submit a song and allow ranking, they would want to receive and give honest, constructive criticism, right?'. That is what my naive-self expected. Unfortunately, I was wrong. I have not had this happen to me personally (thankfully) but I have seen it happen to several people (and I have only been a member 2 days). If it does happen to me than that particular ranking and opinion would be irrelevant to me.
In conclusion (finally right?)
I don't think it matters if a person has submitted a song or not (or if they work with professionals) each rank and comment should be looked at individually and then you should judge for yourself if the comments were posted to be constructive and encouraging or just reciprocating the low rank they were given.
Hope this was helpful in some way.

_________________
neverheardofher

I think anyone should be able to rank/comment. I'd have posted some by now if I had the setup to from my computer. Don't have the inputs/software to do so right now, but still enjoy listening to them and would like to be able to comment. Thanks.

Phill,
I believe Singing members Plus Certain "Ranking KS Forum" members should be allowed that privelege also by request only. As long as they don't abuse the privelege and don't bias the votes. It should be ok as far as I'm concerned.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

All should vote or none should vote. My humble, newbie, opinion is....

1. If there was a reasonable way to weed out the biased and/or mean folks, some of the singers would likely be blocked from voting too. So, the question really isn't 'submitter vs. listener'

2. The Admin can only do so much. The Admin is supporting a fair and fun culture (thanks!) - BUT we are the ones with the burden of sustaining the culture of this site. We must be on the watch for 'bad voters' and respond respectfully - which most are doing.

From what you have all written, there seems to be no simple fix. Here's a couple more 'not so simple' potetial fixes.

----Allow submitters to 'throw out' or disregard one rank. This might encourage more and better comments to justify rank
----Rate the Rankers - An individulal's submitted rank could then be 'weighed' by their rating as a ranker (tonge twister).

Thanks for reading, but mostly, thanks for wanting my opinion.

Old Paint -

HUH?

That was funny, I hope that is what you were going for?!

You do make some valid points. It is up to the members to make it work. You are right the moderators and myself can only do so much. I am trying to make this site as much fun as possible.

It is sad that a few "bad apples" do ruin it for others, but what is a guy to do.

Karaoke and this site are about having fun. Just smile and enjoy, does it really matter what others think anyways?

Phill

Phil - I have this thing where I think things should be fair - I also know this to be a bit of a flaw in my personality type.

Whether its a rank of 10 or 1 - The thrill and gratification that someone sought out your song for a listen will keep me coming back here.

Ultimately, you are absolutely correct. First and foremost have fun!!!

PS...I was being serious, but I'm glad you got a smile.

I voted in favor of ANYONE CAN RANK! I also want to add this: IS THERE A WAY to MONITOR the number of times a SONG has been accessed?

QUALIFICATION: THERE MUST BE A CREED OR GUIDELINE for those who may rank a song. Keep this in mind: NO ONE IS AN EXPERT. Therefore, ranking a song (NOT THE SINGER) is a "personal expression" from the writer.

GUIDELINE FOR RANKING: Singers should know how their song is being ranked. Likewise the purpose of ranking is to offer POSITIVE REMARKS (first) and OFFER SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT (2nd), in that order. I would use 3 categories: (1)MUSIC - quality of voice, rythm accuracy, forward movement (flow) (2) PITCH ACCURACY - being on key and (3) INTERPRETATION - how effective the emotions of the songs were communicated to the listener.

I would give every SONG 100 points on each of the 3 categories above to start and deduct 5 points for errors on each category. Resulting balance on all 3 would then be added and divided by 3. Average points of 91+ would rank a 10; 81-90, = 9; 71-80=8; 61-70=7; 51-60=6. I would not post anything less than 6 points.

Those who rank should be required to IDENTIFY ERRORS after PROVIDING 2 POSITIVE REMARKS for each error. This is to encourage the singer and offer positive suggestions for improvement.

MODERATORS would have the right to CENSOR and DELETE an IMPROPER RANK OR COMMENT.

Perhaps we could change the way feedback is left. For instance, a box could pop up asking for comments/feedback, and then ask "Would You Like To Rank This Submission"? This way folks are required to leave constructive feedback/comments BEFORE ranking should they chose to do so. What do y'all think?

JW

Aquarious ONE..
I do take exception to this. "no one is an expert" If I posted my Bio and resume' People would just "flip". There many professionals as I am told by cartain parties that do access the site on a regular basis. So I would be careful what you say. I don't put up my best songs, Nor my originals for that reason. There is a method to my madness.

Have a nice day.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

Old Paint had a good point there. Why not display the average voting score of each user, the average of the all the scores they have given to other users? If they want to vote, then other users will know what kind of scores these people have given out in the past. Then the submitter can judge for themselves how much weight to give to that person's particular score/rank. There doesn't have to be a list of what they voted on or anything...just an average score of ranks given out.

This might cause people to give out 10s just so their personal average is good, but it might also deter those coming in with revenge votes. There's a flipside to everything!

Enjoy the site!

Mr. Webmaster Sir,
I know you are busy helping people, like you have...several times, for me (thanks again, by the way-the new name has gotten a few good chuckles ).
But if you could take a minute to post some suggested guidelines on ranking. I, and I am sure others, would greatly appreciate it.
Everybody has their own opinion and I am not opposed to that. I just think if everyone tried to use the same guidelines to rank, than the ranks would have more meaning.
For example, say a person submitted a song, that was not only WAY out of tune, but it sounded like the person was 10 miles away from the mike and in a paper bag. (yes, this is hypothetical, alhtough I have done some that sound just like that! ) Now that takes a lot of guts to post a song like that, so should I give that person a high rank for bravery? Of course not! However, someone else's opinion may differ.
I rank people differently today than when I joined 3 days ago. I wish I there had been something to go by at that time.
I understand that ranking is a personal thing and everyone will have different opinions. But I honestly believe that if we all used a guideline along with our individual opinions, the ranks would have a little more meaning.
Just my 2 cents worth.

p.s. I am asking you because I think you would be the only one that people would agree, that would be fair.

Those are some good ideas...

Let me see if I can figure out a way to configure the average rank by each person then I will see if I can display that next to their name in the comments section, maybe even in the member's profile? That will take some work but I may be able to do that.

As far as, me coming up with a "fair" criteria for ranking - OUCH! - Not certain that I am qualified. Ask others that know me and have heard me sing <BLUSH>

Maybe what we should do is start a topic for people to submit their ideas on what is fair then we can critique those to something that everyone can agree to. I know there is already a topic with that in mind...

Love the feedback...

Thanx

Phill