Karaoke Forums

I've got 5 regular freeloaders that i make carry my equipment. They sing for free, i give my comped meal to them (20 buffalo wings) and they carry my sh*t to my car and back.

OK....i've really only got 2 of 'em....and i created them so i'm stuck with them.

There are plenty of other regualr paying customers that make up for them...and they are called TOURISTS.....gotta love 'em.

My current question about the need for this pole was is response to HUNDREDS of posts I've read over the last few years from folks, other than myself, who are/were convinced that they don't have freeloaders, or if they do, that freeloaders aren't a problem, or it they are a problem they are management's problem.

So one can only deduce from some many the previous posts on the matter that freeloaders are not a concern to but a few of us! Dave (DBK1009), from Ft Lauderdale, confirmed the accuracy of what I described back two years ago! His confirmation was, however, also ignored!

My posts, are not designed to convince people that they do have freeloaders but that if freeloaders should start to appear, and if they start to appear in any significant numbers, and if they start to appear on a regular basis that they can destroy a show's viability. If you are a good businessperson, you will use my "heads up" to be prepared to confront the problem should it arise at your show. And... that you will not expect management to do YOUR job. I have never seen management do a thing other than fire the KJ of the show that failed! Wouldn't you?

I again will ask. WHAT will you do in this situation? You tell management, they don't do anything. How do you take it upon yourself to stop the problem? Not let them sing as Tim has suggested numerous times? Ignore them? Make them want to leave by putting in wrong versions or changing the key on them - making you as a kj look like you don't know what you are doing.
WHAT?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

We don't have freeloaders. and if we did I believe that would be the bar's issue not mine. I am a contractor, not an employee of the bar. I don’t set venue policy, I only set policy in regards to the show and my equipment. I am responsible for running my show, not policing the bar.

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"Baby, Just Because I Rock, Doesn't Mean I'm Made Of Stone."

Exactly. They run the bar, I run the show. If I lose a club because the bar isn't doing anything about non-spenders & wants to put blame on me, so be it, then I don't need to work in that club anyway & will look for a new show.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

So, I ask one last time....of those of you who stubbornly assert that the problem of freeloaders will be handled by management trying to accomplish? Do you have any experience to support your position that you have something to gain and nothing to lose taking that posture?

What I will say to those of you with successful gigs, you are doing a disservice to some new KJ's who may someday encounter this problem, KJ's who have as yet built a large, returning crowd of customers.

What more can I say to those who have never experienced freeloaders destroying a Karaoke gig? I have seen it happen several times....you, to your knowledge, have never seen it happen once!

And if you believe management will resolve the problem... keep your head in the sand...AND BE THE STUBBORN ONE, because management will surely fire you, not save you...

I waited, as a singer, for someone to get rid of the deadwood... the KJ was aware of it and "turned the other way". The owners were probably not aware of it, and if they were, they "turned the other way". And I and several other paying customers eventually left to go to other shows.

And as a KJ, 90% or more of the owners ask me if I have a following. They aren't asking out of curiousity; they are asking because they can convert a headcount into the "Ching", "Ching", "Ching" of their cash register. And when they make that mathematical conversion from headcount to dollars do you think they say.....And, OF COURSE, 5 of those in attendance will be deadbeats? And how many paying singers would you think is needed to convince an owner to give Karaoke a try, assuming he is willing to "invest" a little in the effort until it builds and actually becomes successful? And how many is required if the owner is not willing to make any investment and expects to turn a profit off of karaoke from day 1?

We used to have a problem with freeloaders years ago - water drinkers, or free refills on soda. The bar complained & THEY started charging for all drinks - refills as well.
If they didn't, there would be nothing I could've done to change that nor would it have been my position to.



AND ONCE AGAIN, what do you suggest?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

We have a 2 drink min for karaoke participation. If people don't drink they can't sing plain and simple. My job is to entertain the customers that are spending money. There are a few people that do not drink but they buy other people drinks are with a group of people that are spending money, they generally are DD.

As being one of the stubborn ones I'll reply. I can tell you from the 6 - 10 karaoke bars I frequent that I have rarely seen any freeloaders, and if I have seen "soda / water" drinkers they were either the DD or hung over from the night before. It seems your area just may be more prone then mine. I'm in a major tourist city. We just don't see it, and if we did the bar owner or staff would deal with it. I have never been asked nor ever seen any other host have to deal with that type of situation.

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"Baby, Just Because I Rock, Doesn't Mean I'm Made Of Stone."

Lazer

Being a new voice in the fray.... I remind you that I am not telling anyone what they are experiencing in their own locales... how would I know?

I am absolutely and totally amazed, therefore, why so many who ADMITTEDLY have no experience with the problem deemed themselves to be experts and insist that the problem is management's?

What does anyone accomplish by taking such a stance?

If I told you that no venue any longer offers karaoke in south Florida, would your response be... "well they haven't closed by me"?

LONMAN
If you go back to the "Water Drinkers" thread you'll see some of the thoughts that have crossed mine and some other KJ's minds!

Of course it is ignorant on the part of a venue to give free refills, but it has been my experienced that the venues that most typically suffer from the freeloaders are restaurants. And, BTW, as restaurants their menus allow for free refills! And while you might consider that to be part of the problem, consider further .that everyone else is buying dinner (usually for themselves and partner). So, even if the freeloaders (who always come alone) paid for two soft drinks during the course of the evening I don't think it would make much difference? The restaurants under discussion started karaoke between 6:30 to 8pm with the hopes that it would increase its dinner crowd!

LIQUID DYE
I share your viewpoint wholeheartedly and the believe that the policy you work with is the most sound business model karaoke venues should consider to be fair to the singers who are supporting our efforts and to maximize the profitability and longevity of ours shows!

So a person comes to a restaruant, orders a meal and has water with it, where is the freeloading? They've bought their meal. They are not freeloaders. Now if they get water, eat the bredsticks and not order anything, then that is freeloading.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Timberlea

I said "everyone ELSE" is buying dinner.... implying that the freeloaders come to a restaurant that serves liquor with no intention of eating or "drinking". And these circumstances are the very same that I have been describing on this forum since Februay 2007!!!!!

At my venue, (which is a restaurant, and bar), the freeloader would not only get water, BUT, could probably get some chips and salsa to go with their FREE glass of water. I wouldn't like the fact that this person is taking advantage of an altruistic situation, but as long as I'm bringing enough revenue for the owner, and he decides to keep me around, I guess we can afford to be benevolent, and not begrudge the POOR GUY his water, AND chips and salsa. If the owner decides that he no longer wants to give this guy a HANDOUT, I'm sure he has the balls to tell the guy to get the hell out. The city I'm living in doesn't have many "freeloaders", however, I personally know some karaoke freeloaders, and will be on the lookout for them.

Rosario

Around the "poor guys", as you referred to them, have more money than you and I combined!

That's why I capitalized the POOR GUY, I'm sure most of them do have more money than ME (for sure), can't speak for you, don't know you that well. Now Eric, you're not going to tell me YOU'D begrudge this guy a glass of water, and a few measly chips, and maybe a small dish of salsa, WOULD YOU? I know you couldn't be that mean, COULD YOU?

Rosario

Lazer

Being a new voice in the fray.... I remind you that I am not telling anyone what they are experiencing in their own locales... how would I know?

New to the fray? Do you mean this topic, or this board, or karaoke in general? I have read the thread and respond accordingly.

I am absolutely and totally amazed, therefore, why so many who ADMITTEDLY have no experience with the problem deemed themselves to be experts and insist that the problem is management's?

The topic was: POLL: Freeloaders at Your Venues - I voted and I commented, I never said I was an expert on freeloaders. I have however explained what I have and have not seen and my feelings on what I would or would not do in that situation. That's what you do in a forum, state your opinion. I'm not asking you to agree with it.

What does anyone accomplish by taking such a stance?

If I told you that no venue any longer offers karaoke in south Florida, would your response be... "well they haven't closed by me"?

I would tell you that I frequent South Florida: Miami, Delray Beach, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm, and Boca Raton, at least two weeks a month for my job. I would also say I attend karaoke almost everynight when I am down there I would then point out some places where you could find good karaoke.

Basicly I would answer according to what I know. Just as I have.

Look at the poll. It speaks for itself. It is more than just me which feels it isn't a problem.

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"Baby, Just Because I Rock, Doesn't Mean I'm Made Of Stone."

That's my point, and hence the use of the term fray.... The pole is a pole.... and it reflects what people believe is happening at this moment and their view of it!

Well, firstly, most people responding to previous discussions of this problem have stated that there are, basically, no freeloaders, or that they are DD's, or that they come with friends who spend money... So, people have decided for themselves in the absence of real facts that freeloaders don't really exist! Some say they exist but have decided that they couldn't possibly be a problem because management doesn't do anything about it. That covers two more assumptions: (1) that management knows of the situation (2) that if they do know they don't care (perhaps they do care but haven't decided what to do about it?) Others basically are unconcerned and if there is a problem it is management's; hence there is, by definition, it's no problem (for them, the KJ).

I know, however, know that there is/could be a problem, anywhere. So, am I suppose to ignore what I have experienced and replace my knowledge of and experience with this problem with the outcome of a COMPLETELY NON-SCIENTIFIC survey?

And with the economy going south, every show in the country will have customers who are unemployed..... and some of those customers will go out to sing with the intention of not spending money (because they don't have it). And they will feel justified in doing so because they have been spending money for years while observing freeloaders in their midst who taught them that you're not obligated to spend money when you enjoy karaoke.... it's free!

And of course, I never suggested where freeloaders are or aren't a problem, other than WHERE I KNOW THEY ARE A PROBLEM ---- locally. And having seen the problem locally THAT is all I need to experience. It doesn't benefit me to know what others are NOT experiencing!

So, you, as somebody who doesn't live here, but DOES come here have decided there is no such problem because you haven't found it. And I assure you that I am familiar with many more local karaoke shows and KJ's than you are.... and many of the shows that suffered as a result of the freeloaders are basically gone ---- but the freeloaders are not. And... actually, if the problem existed at the venues you frequent here in Florida, it could exist, Lazer, right under your nose and you would not recognize it! It took me quite awhile before I figured it out!

So... what does the pole prove? To me it no different than asking everyone how much trouble they are caused by hurricanes where they live and letting the results determine if hurricanes are truly a problem or not!

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"Baby, Just Because I Rock, Doesn't Mean I'm Made Of Stone."

After doing the math, I calculate that we have an entire room full of people that aren't buying even one drink per hour. We had several who weren't buying at all. Management caught on and changed to a stricter bartendress but revenue is dropping, even for the more successful Friday show. People aren't trying to freeload as much as make their money last as long as possible but it isn't paying the way for our show. Of what once was our 10 to 15 regular singers, it is dwindling to 4 or 5 and I am trying to think of who still HAS a job. A couple of the people are in shock, never having been in this position in their entire adult life. Add to that the sheriff circling the parking lot looking for DUIs and people aren't going to buy anything the last few hours.

But I have to go with what Lonman says and say I can't change it. The only thing is to look for a new place. Why? Because along with not totally kicking out the "freeloaders" management is burned out, wants to sell and doesn't do his part to promote us. The surrounding bars are doing ladies nights and specials and free popcorn and drawings and he is just complaining about us not bringing in enough.

I make posters and put them up but he won't even put the company name on the marque. People want to dry out before they drive yet there isn't a heck of a lot besides a bag of potato chips offered for them to spend their money on instead. The other hosts have gone over this with him before and suggested appetizers he could serve but he doesn't want to change much. They have resorted to bringing in their own food to offer but I can't afford to feed the town in order to have a show. So it is true that we will take the fall and the blame but how do we save the situation on our own with no cooperation from the owner? THAT is why people are saying it is ultimately a management problem and if management won't deal with it then the only thing to do is move on.

Leopard, All I can say is that the manager at your venue doesn't seem to be much of a business man, sounds like a fool to me. Anybody who won't let you hang a banner, or advertise, or offer people SOME kind of incentive to come to their place rather than the place across the street, sounds like an idiot to me. Sorry, I don't like to call people names, but as I see it, you don't have a chance of survival at that venue if the owner doesn't want to even try to survive. Might as well start looking.

Rosario