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Well sorry I don't have time to go hunting for your answers which is why I asked here.
So do you consider say a group of 7 people, that buy one pitcher for say $7 & get 7 glasses so they can all share that pitcher between them, ok say they ended up getting 2 pitchers for the night. Group is having fun singing, but in reality only spent $2 each. How is that different from a single person coming in & buying a couple sodas - still spent the same amount.
If the bar doesn't charge for refills, their bad. They should have entertainment policy where all drinks get charged for once entertainment starts. Yes it is still ultimately THEIR responsilbility to make sure the people in their establishment are spending money on something. Not the entertainments. If you do anything, this will just hurt your reputation as a kj more so than a bar that fires you because they want to put blame on the entertainment rather than themselves for allowing the non-spenders in & stay to begin with. Mainly because if the bar is allowing this behaviour & you take it upon yourself to shun these people, they will only pont at you now, complain to the staff that is allowing them to stay & now you are the bad guy. Just do what you were hired to do. If the bar has a policy & tells you to NOT allow people to sing that are not spending, then you have all rights to cut those people off & not allow them to sing & direct them to the management that made the policy, but if they have no such policy in place, then you do your job & continue as normal.

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Serenity,
We are always looking but finding people are enthusiastic yet hesitating on taking the plunge while they watch how things are going with the economy.

The fellow ran this bar for decades successfully so he isn't an idiot so much as burned out and tired of trying this and that. He resorts to his old glory days when he had a list of c-list country bands packing the place with a bar-b-que outside and he would really like to go back to that. He warned us that he didn't believe there was a market for karaoke on a Saturday night in that town and he was probably correct (except we think there is an untapped youth market) but he gave us a shot and we needed the experience.

He advertises Fri/Sat Karaoke on his marquee but doens't make a big deal over it and specify each company like he does when he has in a country singer.

As far as the feeloading, he tends to have a bit of a part in it--once when we were just singers there, we didn't come for a few weeks. When we explained that we had to repair our generator so were low on funds, he told us we should still come in and he would spot us a few drinks because he liked my boyfriend's singing. So I imagine he is doing the same for others.

So, it seems, Leopard has experienced, first hand, a freeloading problem that actually exceeds ANYTHING I ever ran into!



Solutions are great! But folks who don't or can't recognize a problem are unlikely to have ANY solution when they are confronted by it. As to "solutions", the only one currently being used here in Florida that I am aware of is to exclude deadbeats from the rotation. In one case a KJ that has between 12-16 shows running each week let's folks know that if you're not spending you're not in the rotation.

I also shared some ideas I have been considering; they are posted in the Thread on "Water Drinkers", which was the impetus for this silly pole. You may also not be aware that I have posted about this problem in the past and those posts provided the following information:

1)My discussion about this problem started in February 2007 as only a singer/member of this forum (my first job KJing was in early 2008). And I related how my self and some others had abandoned shows where freeloaders were consuming valuable singing time that "we were paying for"
2)I know many of these deadbeats and they like me and have heard about my show and they are still around and have "promised to come to one of my shows" when it doesn't conflict with where they are now going. And, they go to the same show(s) although, for the most part, they travel separately! So far, they haven't appeared!

So, Lazer, it really doesn't impact much of anything as to where YOU'RE NOT experiencing the problem here in Florida! And whether I had any suggestions or not on how to handle the problem is of limited importance other than to myself. My efforts have been to get people to get their "heads out of the sand". And with the economy going south, being prepared for this problem, even if it truly never materializes, is more important than ever... Hang the Pole!

Like I said, sorry for calling names, but, IF he wants to survive, (I know you said he's burnt out), the only way to overcome the lack of business is to TAKE some of the business back from WHEREVER it went. If less people are coming out, and spending less money, then you have to MAKE SURE that when they do come out to spend ANY money, that they spend it at your venue. No one said it would be easy, but you do have to have something to offer that the OTHERS aren't offering. There's an old saying, " if you want to make an omelet, you've got to crack some eggs ". Advertisement is the key. You can get a custom banner for outside advertising karaoke night with your name on it (Cheap), and effective. The appetizers, and snacks is a GREAT idea, but if your suggestions are falling on DEAF ears, you're SOL.
Theme Parties are more GREAT ideas. March (St. Patricks Day), April (Beach Night), May (Cinco de Mayo), and Memorial Day. Cheap party favors, drink specials, people love something for nothing.

Rosario

Lonman,

Just do what you want to do. What is your problem? You don't have to change a thing it you don't care to and surely do have to convince me! If you DON"T UNDERSTAND that a KJ doing nothing might result in the KJ having nothing (in the way of a viable show)... then continue believing what you want! I have to believe by now that I have accomplished my goal -- to forewarn the business people amongst us who recognize the importance of planning and managing that with the economy being the way it is, freeloading has a real potential for becoming a problem everywhere!

As to what do I consider to be a freeloader.... I think that I have described that many times but nobody seems to remember or get it. So, I'll do it one MORE time. A freeloader is someone who shows up at the same show every week, at a restaurant, spends little or no money, although the show is at "dinner time", and then repeats the same "performance" at one or two other dinner shows on other nights of the week, WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT!

And what would you suggest is the impact of such activities when that person is just one out of 4 or 5 who meet up at the same shows and do the very same thing? Now, what would you call such a people? And what would you suggest is the intention of such people after observing them doing the same thing for several years? And how would you feel if you were one of 12-15 singers in a rotation that includes 5 of THEM?

Leopard

EVERYTHING eventually becomes a management problem. But before it becomes a grave problem, management will fire the KJ and move on to somebody or something else. So... do you really agree it's a good idea to let freeloaders kill your show, knowing it has happened to you right now? You'd rather be uninvolved and leave your fate to management if you knew 6 months ago what is/was going to happen? You efforts may not have been successful, but doing nothing will surely return nothing!

And didn't you say you put up posters? Isn't that management's job? I won't take a job without an assurance from the management that they will promote the show, even if its just table cards, fliers, banners, posters and the like. I'll even print up the table cards and the master for the fliers and posters. But marketing efforts beyond contacting my "following" is management's job...

And some will say that sounds like a contradiction on my part...

Freeloaders>my problem
Marketing>management's responsibility

And marketing, is so much more fun then what I will likely experience when and if I have to finally deal with the freeloading problem!

It's funny, I never ran a pole on this thread. I wouldn't know how to. I've heard of poles for pole vault, firehouse poles, and even poles for dancing.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Lonman

As I said much, much earlier one of my reasons for reacting to freeloaders is that I am worried about my reputation, and losing a show is not only a financial "setback" it effects a KJ's reputation. So, in short, anything I do OR DON'T do regarding deadbeats could impact my reputation!

And, as to leaving people out of the rotation as a tool, I know that is, in fact, being done with some success by company with 12-16 shows each week. And... it is a standing policy at every show. And I don't hear any negativity from anyone regarding this policy although I have heard other things about that company from singers, owners and fellow KJ's. And I have not heard that any of the hired KJ's are upset about being asked to monitor for deadbeats! It's not that big of a deal! And... deadbeats are not individuals who may on occasion spend little or nothing. They are HABITUAL and identifiable!

This is just a circular discussion now. You don't validate your point with anything other then this is what you see vs the rest of the world.

If you are experiencing this serious "freeloader" problem well then from the POLL you are an extremely small minority. I'll say it again the POLL is valid to the question asked.

Good luck in your venue.

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"Baby, Just Because I Rock, Doesn't Mean I'm Made Of Stone."

No what I don't understand is how a kj is going to fix the problem. I have people that come in nightly that only spend maybe $5 anight on sodas. The bar allows them to remain so they must either A- Not have a problem or B- have a problem but have no business sense to do anything about them & them shift the blame to the entertainment when their till isn't ringing out.
I as a kj am running a show, if people are or are not spending may ultimately effect if I continue in a venue or not, but it most certainly is not up to me to assume who is/isn't spending money & ignore/cut off/ruin their song/or whatever. I am hired to run a show to the best I can without having to monitor what everyones spending - you told me in another thread that you believe it was impossible for me to be able to know when people are leaving, I find it nearly impossible for you to know who is spending what. The bar wants to make money off that show. If they are allowing the non-spender to remain in the club, then again, it is their responsibility.
I don't see what you are trying to 'forwarn'? That management might not always have the sense to tell people to leave that aren't spending money? And again what about my 7 group scenerio - you never did comment on that one? No different than a single 2 soda drinker. A freeloader is one that spends NO money. Even if someone buys a coke, they are no longer non-spenders, it may not be a high priced item, but they are no longer a 'freeloader' by the technical meaning.
–verb (used without object) Informal. 1. to take advantage of others for free food, entertainment, etc.





Again, look at definition. A freeloader spends nothing. Someone who spends little is not freeloading by definition. So these people should not be lumped together. Again, I ask, what are you going to do about it? Make everyone who spends the most priority? Motto, the more you spend, the more you sing? You only buy 1 round, well you may not be able to sing because this table bought 4 rounds, so they are better than you as far as spending is concerned & I will cater to them more than you?



What would I call such people? Singers? Maybe 'serious' singers? If I was a singer in a rotation of 12-15 singers & 5 of them were only buying Cokes to my 1 drink - maybe 2 if i'm feeling orn'ry, I wouldn't be concerned or really care for that matter - especially if they were enjoyable to listen to & friendly. You obviously have a huge issue this problem. Yes I have experienced it in the past, the bar was the one that took the step & I kept on running my show.
We actually had a couple come in a couple weeks ago, sang a couple songs & we noticed they had brought their own soda in. The bar saw this & booted their butt out the door.
I'd be more concerned about the problem of people going out to their car to hit the bottle, then come back in.

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It is very plain to see that ERIC is just looking for an excuse for his failure as a KJ. It is easier to blame a handful of customers than to accept responsibilty for your shows lack of popularity. Lonnie has a venue that provides karaoke 7 nights a week and he must be bringing in plenty of spenders to keep a show going for as long as he has. He more than likely has a great sound system and a very good library of songs to keep his singers satisfied. His venue probably has plenty of spenders to make up for the ocassional FREELOADER or FIVE.

If Eric's shows in South Florida are only attracting a dozen or so patrons and half of them are FREELOADERS, the KJ will not last long , no matter who he is. I've been to karaoke bars in Florida and some of them have been packed to the gills for years. There are also some that just never seem to attract a crowd, for various reasons, and they fall by the wayside. If a bar has 100 people in it and a handful don't spend more than a few dollars, the bar owner is still making enough money to be profitable in the long run. If there are only 15 or 20 people in the bar, then the bar owner needs ALL OF THEM to be spenders or it doesn't pay to provide those few people with entertainment that will cost the bar more money than those people will spend.

The problem, ERIC, is that you just don't seem to be able to draw a decent crowd. You have no large following that is willing to patronize your venues. You've brought up many businesses that you have endeavored to be successful in and spoke of your education but you seem to fail at most of your business ventures. You complain that people didn't like your tanning beds and you complain that people don't spend enough money at your karaoke shows, etc, etc. Maybe you just don't have the right type of personailty to deal with the general public. Maybe you just rub the public the wrong way with your KNOW IT ALL, MUST BE RIGHT, type A personality?????? Maybe YOU are the problem??? Ya Think?

The thing that we can't seem to get to is what the KJ can do about this problem--escpecially if management is determined to do as they see fit. My contention is that if management is not taking care of their end of one part of the business, they will fail you in others. If they are unwilling to work with you or risk trying new things the KJ can't single-handledly save the show or the bar. Especially when competing venues are actively trying to recruit new customers with drawings and free food and things that we couldn't afford to do on our own. The show is doomed anyway. So you learn to pick a better venue/situation next time, be a better negotiator from the beginning and move on.

And I am not sure what forewarning you can have if you aren't privy to the cash register. I saw more bodys, the bodys were drinking. The body's evidently weren't paying. I don't collect the tabs.

Since this guy does reminisce about the barbecues, and parties he had when he WAS MAKING MONEY, maybe that's the avenue you should approach him with. He may be receptive to it, since he liked those days. Maybe plan a barbecue party followed by a night of karaoke. Charge a nominal fee for all the beer and barbecue you can handle, maybe even a barbecue COOKOFF. Then get yourself ready for some of the best karaoke in town. I would promote it to ALL of YOUR regulars, as well as put flyers up throughout the bar at least a week in advance. Take a shot, what have you got to lose. Just a suggestion.

Rosario

Leopard

I posted some of the things that I have been considering as a response to freeloaders on the "Water Drinkers" thread, which was the impetus for this silly pole - see the last page of that thread as to some of my thoughts.

Keep in mind, unlike the lies of BFFL and complete ignorance displayed by him, I identified the problem of freeloaders and started to discuss the problem on this forum back in early 2006 as a singer, long before I became a KJ.

And it is worth noting that in the worst-case scenario what ultimately can happen based upon my experience is that the paying singers start to leave because of their disgust with the deadbeats, who take up valuable space in the rotation and also because of this "ethical principle" --->I know that my outlay of money at each show helps to sustain the event. Why should I make karaoke available to deadbeats like BFFL and others, through the "sweat of my brow"? He's already said that all he cares about is his chance to sing Brooooooossss' songs and that's how many deadbeats are COMPLETELY SELF-CENTERED!

Now.. if the subject matter were taken seriously back in 2006, long before this recession developed, I believe a couple of things could have been accomplished:

1. Some consensus might have been reached as to what is the definition of a "freeloader". Instead, virtually everyone has been making excuses for the "bums": I've had it explained to me that they MIGHT BE be DD's, or they MIGHT come with others who do spend money, or they MIGHT BE recovering alcoholics (SO I GUESS THEY CAN'T EAT either?)! And all of these excuses, mind you, came after I specifically described who the deadbeats are and how they "work", which does not match any of the "excuse" provided.

2. Some understanding could have been reached as to when and how "freeloaders" become a problem to a show. Instead, virtually everyone has been making declaring that they don't really exist, or they're not a problem, as suggested by this pole. Of course, you Leopard know otherwise. Some have suggested that freeloaders can be a positive if they are entertaining, almost as if the show can't go on without them.

3. KJ's could have become sensitive to the possibility that deadbeats could become regulars at their shows, and become prepared for that possibility.

4. More KJ's, if they wanted to, could have initiated a discussion with management about what might be done about deadbeats before they first show up

5. KJ's could plan what they intend to do if management is unavailable, unprepared to address the problem or leaves it to the KJ to deal with.

And, what I keep highlighting from time to time is that I KNOW personally many of the local freeloaders.... and I am considered to be a "karaoke buddy" to them. And some of them have indicated that they plan to come to my show when it doesn't conflict with where they are currently going. And if they actually start to come to my show en mass on a regular basis I know I will have a problem. And I plan to deal with it should it happen!

What is this pole Eric's talking about?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I think he means POLL. A POLE is what a stripper uses to perform.

Me thinks I hit a nerve. I always get called names for pointing out the truth. Now, apparently, I don't spend any money when I go to karaoke because eric says so.

25 people have voted in the POLL and not ONE person thinks that it is a serious problem. I ordered 4 beers last night and food at karaoke. I believe they call it the Deadbeat Special.

I've been following this thread for some time but one thing confuses me Eric.

Am I correct in assuming that you think that if a KJ has attracted the Deadbeats/Freeloaders in the first place then it is up to him/her to do something about it (whatever that may be)

Or do you agree that these people will turn up at EVERY Karaoke show in the locality whoever the KJ happens to be (as is certainly the case in my experience).

It was just something you said in your last post -



Don't get me wrong when I say, in my experience, freeloaders will turn up to every show - I'm only talking about a very small problem but there is maybe 2 or 3 at the most who I could point to who noticeably don't seem to frequent the bar as often as most. BUT they are there week after week. AND they are ALWAYS there whenever I go to some other show nearby.

My point is this - Why should you get fired because of non-spenders at your show when the same people are at someone elses show ?

My last question -

If you played in a band and had a gig at a bar, would you see it as your responsibility to watch out for anyone not drinking/spending enough ???

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[font=Fantasy][/font] "Travellin' at the speed of light"

Ok, I'll put in my 2 cents. I've been going to bars for over forty years now (OMG), and have seen the same type of people you are talking about for FORTY YEARS. Some of them have been friends of mine, we ALL know some of them. My point is, is that FREELOADERS, or as we commonly called them CHEAPSKATES, will always exist. If there's something for nothing, they're going to be there. They're the same people that "forgot their wallet", or "can you loan me a couple of bucks tonight", or any other excuse for them not to spend THEIR money. They always want to be a part of whatever is going on, but don't want to contribute to that cause. BELIEVE ME, they know who, and what they are CHEAPSKATES. You can call them names, that don't effect them, you can embarrass them, no effect. So, WHAT can you do? NOTHING, they're NOT going to change, they DON'T CARE what you or I or anyone else thinks of them, THAT'S WHO THEY ARE. If you don't like it, TOO BAD. If you owned the establishment, and they came in and had friends there, you COULD throw the CHEAPSKATE out, but I think that would only make YOU look like the bad guy. So I think the best solution is to do what EVERYONE else has been doing for the last FORTY YEARS that I know of and ignore the fact that they are CHEAP, and every now and then just say to them " You know, you REALLY ARE A CHEAP BAST***! Sometimes it just feels good to say that to them, then you wind up buying them a drink.

Rosario

You know what I found out? I found out that when you PM people with whom you are in heated debate, in MOST cases ( when it's not a personal issue) the points become more clearly defined, and both parties come away a bit enlightened. It just seems that the public posts encourage posturing and negativity...



I am the first to admit that I don't have enough experience with a freeloader problem to give a DEFINITIVE answer for it.

Here's what I believe:

1) If there is a problem, one must first determine if the person in question is a TRUE freeloader. I have said in the past that some who don't drink may well help the venue in other ways ( i.e. brings in a bunch of paying customers through word of mouth and personal popularity).
OK, from this point forward assume I'm talking about "true" freeloaders- no help singers.


2) I believe it is not my place to go against venue policy and ownership- if they are aware and don't care, that's it.

If the venue is aware,but wants ME to be the axeman/enforcer- still won't do it directly. I'm running a business of my own. If THEY want them out, THEY can be the bad guy.

3) Except in very rare circumstances not related to this thread, it is not my place to ban a singer.


Now, all of that being said, and with the reminder that my experience in the area is extremely limited:

IF[/u] one wanted to handle the problem on their own, there are ways. I completely disagree with Lon and Timber on this occasion (weird, as this rarely happens ).

I feel that if one IS professional enough, with all the skills involved, things like version changes or mixing SHOULD go completely unnoticed for one singer. The singer just doesn't quite as good as they would like-while everyone else does. The impression given to all (but the singer)- if done properly- is that it's the singer's problem problem. An unhappy singer goes to another show. Bye bye.

Of course, skill is the key. If the host makes an Elvis style singer sound like Shirley Temple, or use a version that is horrible enough that everyone notices, or keychange the music instead of the mic, etc.., or other unsubtle means, the HOST looks like a jerk.

Also, if a host has a bunch of freeloaders and try to do them all in one night instead of trying to diminish one at a time, the will once again look the fool.


In honesty, I cannnot say these are "tried and true" methods. I had to do it on two different occasions for reasons that were in combination to freeloading and not relevant here. Call it Problem Freeloaders rather than a freeloader problem. I CAN say that on these two occasions the methods above worked.

I really can't think of anything else that might help solve what seems to be a problem in Eric's area ( and NOT, by the way, limited one or two venues down there.)

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" Disc based and loving it..."

The length of this thread is amazing to me. Serenity sums it up well - there are cheapskates out there and as long as we don't let them and their actions affect the profitability of a show, they'll always just BE there. Whether we have to actually do something about them is another thing. I have been known to suggest rather firmly to a light spender, after the server mentions that there is a 2-alcoholic drink minimum, that it is the singers who pay for the show and that everyone certainly needs to do their share. There are, of course, those who seem to blithely ignore hints about their light spending but I have never had to actually handle those people - it is up to the bartender to do that as they are the ones who know how much/little people spend....this is particularly true if the perpetrator is not the best singer in the world and may actually affect attendance by driving nonsingers out... I prefer to stay out of that fray and if the staff actually succeeds in keeping those people from attending, more power to them. I don't have egg on my face. My 0.02.