Karaoke Forums

Thanks guys for the correction on "pole"; I needed that.

For benefit of Messrs Farenheit & Mr Srnitynow:

At the expense of repeating myself, which I have admittedly done during the last few years in this regard, I provide the following which was recently posted in the current "Water Drinkers" thread

This scenario is typical of what I experienced repeatedly as certain shows, as a singer, accompanied by my wife (both of us partaking in dinner and a cocktail or two):
1. The venue is a restaurant with some level of alcohol license
2. The karaoke starts around "dinner time" (6:30-7:30pm) and runs for as little as
three hours
3. The establishment has a small dinnertime crowd of less than 30, hence the desire to bring in entertainment.
4. The Karaoke show brings in an additional 15-25 people.
5. The singing rotation is comprised of 12-15 singers, sometime less.
6. 3-5 deadbeats are included in the rotation
7. Virtually the same deadbeats have been "operating" in the same fashion over the years during which I have been acquainted with them

Eventually, some of the paying customers and myself realized that the deadbeats are attending regularly, taking up "space" in the rotation and spending little or nothing. So... some of the paying customers will decide to attend a different show.... and the original show becomes even less profitable and soon will be canceled!

This could also lead to the show developing a bad reputation that causes others to avoid it!

Please note: Shows with 25-50 singers in a rotation are rare around here! There are many, struggling, marginally profitable karaoke shows barely surviving at this time.


So, you recognize the existence of deadbeats, as Leopard now does from the experience with her show. So we clearly have no disagreement that they exist! Then the only question, as portrayed in this silly poll is whether they are a problem? Well, clearly then the only question is one of degrees. And.. I know instances where they have been/are a problem. I hope the scenario provided above helped to clarify for you as to how problematic they can become even in numbers not much larger than you have identified!



KJ's aren't fired directly because of the freeloaders; they get fired because management finally decides that show is not producing profits in accordance with its expectations. AND.. in this scenario the bottom line stays flat or even starts to decline, rather than rise, after a month or two. Therefore, there is no reason for management to continue the show.



I don't see why one would make that comparison? I would compare karaoke to an open mic night and would suggest that the host of such an event be as diligent as I believe a KJ should be!

Consider, further, that a band IS the entertainment and exists without the direct participation of the audience. Most of the draw for having karaoke, at least around here, is that the venue attract in singers and their friends who will spend money. If no singers show up and/or if those that do spend no money, there is no reason to have karaoke.

And the worse experience for a KJ would be to lose paying customers to another show due to the existence of deadbeats at their show. And while you may wonder if there are deadbeats at the other karaoke show... according to this silly "POLL" that's not likely to be a problem!

Most KJ's, furthermore, would like to find a gig such as Lonman has where his position is so secure, that he doesn't have to worry about things like freeloaders, under-cutters and other things that most KJ's concern themselves with here. Bands, on the other hand, rarely expect to be any one place for too long. So... if a particular gig is a bust for a band, they probably have a "contract" to be somewhere else soon, anyway. Bands expect to play different venues and don't often sta in one place for any length of time!

It really doesn't serve a KJ well to be replacing venues every couple of weeks or even every 2-3 months with the hope that one will finally "stick", BUT that's what many do who aren't concerned enough with what is going on around them end up doing!

Eventually, with a little luck, a KJ might draw larger and well-rounded crowds where the deadbeats, if any, are a smaller percentage of the total singers. And that "smoothing out" should begin to happen as the rotation starts to exceed 20.

PS" Someone asked why I had not (if I hadn't) responded to the POLL? Well, that's a great question.... AND I haven't responded to the POLL because as KJ I have as yet to experience the problem. AS A BUSINESSMAN, I have seen the scenario described above repeated over and over again! So,,,, the real question isn't if freeloaders are a problem at my venue... the real questionS are: how and when do freeloaders become a problem; would you even recognize the problem if it occurred; what will you do about it?

PPS: BFFL it's all right with your fans that you don't spend any money at karaoke.... they luv ya, baby!

These points are what I have trouble with. IF management is aware of these 3-5 'deadbeats' then WHY do THEY (the bar/restaurant staff) continue to ALLOW THEM (the deadbeats) to REMAIN in the establishment? If they aren't spending anything, the staff has every right in the world to tell them to hit the bricks as this is basically loitering inside their establishment.
And if they are not aware, then why haven't they been notified so they can do something about it? And if they HAVE been notified and still does nothing about it, then THEY (bar staff/managament) really do not have a problem with it afterall!



I guess things are really bad down there for singers to really know what other singers are spending. As a sionger THIS I have never experienced, when I go into a club I am busy talking with my friends or drinking or watching the show to even bother with what others are 'spending' - do people really monitor that hard if someone is ordering food or drink. Personally I couldn't give a rip what others are spending if they are singing. I don't go to shows to watch the spending habits of others & certainly wouldn't modify going somewhere else because someone isn't spending. That's pretty rediculous IMO.


Then management should step in and tell these people they cannot remain without spending or they need to put a minimum spending limit in place that everyone must adhere to (which would most likely kill the show faster than a non-spender).

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

After last night driving home, when both urinals of the men's room were clogged with vomit, urine was 1/2" deep on the floor, the dance crowd couldn't stand up the last hour, and I had to step over one guy passed out on the floor while picking up the books, I was reminded of this thread.

Security picked the guy off the floor, dragged him out by his shoulders, and deposited him outside. Someone took it from there because he was gone when I left.

The manager said it was a good night.

Be careful what you wish for ericlater.

My venues supply peanuts, popcorn or pretzels. Sometimes they order pizzas after happy hour to retain the crowd for the entertainment. My current venue has ladies night during karaoke. If a freeloader as you call them is not causing trouble, is contributing to the the show they are welcome. This is business and all businesses do it. They are called leaders and all successful businesses do it. Do you undrstand ththis concept?

With my 5 freeloaders and ten singers that dont drink that much I will take over your gig in a heartbeat.

It is obvious that you do not have the first clue about managing a small bar or a large club' I still say if 5 -10 non drinking singers has that much effect on profits then you better find some successful gigs and get a grip.

I gave you a solution but you persist in arguing about archaic rules and karaoke must be done only one way. You do sound like a singer and not a proven host but with a singers selfish ideas.

Read this again. A business has sales or gives freebies to attract crowds.

This is business and all businesses do it. They are called leaders and all successful businesses do it.

Those bar owners which you regard as the enemy or dumb are still in business. Are you?

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

5 'deadbeats' still leaves 10-20 paying customers, which is 33-66% more customers than there were before karaoke, so it wouldn't be surprising to me that the management sees karaoke being an advantage, despite the 'deadbeats'.

Eric, perhaps the poll is "silly" to you because the results clearly contradict your opinions. There is not one vote for the freeloaders being a significant problem to any of the respondents. Even you admit that they are not a problem at your venues.

In my experience as a singer (not a KJ), a great karaoke venue is not all that common. There are plenty of deadbeat KJs out there running mediocre to really bad shows, so much so, that when I find a show that I like which is run well, then I'm not likely to walk out on it just because there are a few freeloaders hanging out there. I have never left a show because of freeloaders. I have left shows because they are poorly run.

Bottom line is, if you run a good show and not a mediocre one, freeloaders will not be a problem.

Psst! Partaking in this discussion thread without 'paying' the entry of an honest answer to the poll could be construed as freeloading.

I've explained too many times, over and over, how and why management might not be the least aware of the deadbeats and I am not going through that again. Anyone who is new to this discussion will find it in one of my posts on page 3 in the "Water Thread"! Everyone else has somehow overlooked it or intentionally ignored it over and over in past discussions!

Regardless if management is/was aware and does nothing, that fact does not help the KJ with the struggling show. Right?

Now let's put our management/financial hats on. Firstly, some of you have challenged me in past discussions as to how much someone SHOULD spend at karaoke? I'll let you judge... how much does the average person spend when they go out to a casual dinner during a weeknight? Why do I ask? Because that's what any reasonable person would expect as the owner of a venue with a dinner time karaoke show!

And let's say you're the manager of a venue who wants to increase your dinner crowd and you count 20 NEW customers coming in, on average, for karaoke during the first few weeks. And you think to yourself, hmmm those 20 NEW CUSTOMERS should be good for $350 of new revenue (including dinner and beverages). And.... if they buy alcoholic beverages after dinner I might do even better

Now, here is the potential economics?
Your food costs hopefully don't exceed 25%, so the gross profit from the karaoke crowd is about $260 on $350.
The KJ is paid $200 leaving a profit before overhead of $60
.... hmmm not much profit, but a good start for this karaoke stuff. And if even if you're breaking even financially, there are many good business reasons for continuing karaoke!

AH HA>>>> but after a few weeks you start to analyze your sales for the period of the day during which karaoke takes place and it's contribution to revenues is not as much as you thought. What happened? Well unknown to the you, there were 5 deadbeats in the crowed. So... the estimate of $350 gross receipts from karaoke needs be reduced to $260 and the gross margin reduced to $197. Then you pay the KJ $200!

And, unfortunately most businessmen don't care that it may be worth continuing the show. In fact, they might actually be making a correct decision in canceling the KJ if they feel they can get a more profitable KJ show in or try some other form of entertainment!

So, of course, in the end management will decided, unknowingly in some cases, to get rid of the deadbeats by getting rid of the show. Good decision for venue management, bad decision making for karaoke management!

Now those of you who don't want to learn...and those of you who want to debate the facts this discussion isn't like tackling a question about ballads or how to mange a rotation? I've provided you with historical data,,,, accept the data as fact or tell me I am a liar. But I am not going to debate the existence or accuracy of these facts with you or the wisdom of "leaving the problem" to management which was in effect done in the circumstances I experienced!!!

Ironically, at one time I had faced a similar problem back when country music and dance were big here (and most everywhere else). I saw a problem developing that venue owners didn't want to acknowledge. And at the time I taught C&W partner dancing!

I raised the question in on this forum as part of my discussion about freeloaders as to why most localities experienced a demise of C&W music venues in a very short period of time? And to his credit, only BigDog had realized that in most instances those venues went out of business, basically, because of "water slurpping" line dancers. These dancers had a big appetite for dancing (read singing) but too many had no appetite for spending much, if any money --- a bottle of water would do for the night!

And while you may say I was wrong as to what I had foreseen...since no one else had foreseen the problem, to this day most people can't figure out why so many C&W places that were packed went out of business?

Then if they are not aware, MAKE them aware.


Not going to go search, post a link to the thread.


But it does not reflect on the kj IF management is aware & does nothing about it, it just means they don't really care. Could be they want it fail because they can write it off as a business loss?


Depends on the night & financial situation for the week. Some nights I might spend more, some nights I might spend less. I spend according to what I can afford at the time. Some nights that may only add up to $5 but others I can have tabs intodouble digits & on occasion into the triple digits. But generally the avg tab for me is about $9 plus tip. I drink 2 drinks on average. The places I go do not serve food, so can't eat.


Then I as a kj would inform the staff if I personally knew they were non-spenders (the staff would have to be pretty much idiots to not realize it for themsleves) & suggest they get those people out because they aren't spending. This way they would be informed, possibly would get those non-spenders out of the establishment & open those now empty seats up for a potential spending customer.
So I will again say MAKE IT KNOWN TO THEM so they can do something about it!



But if management was informed in the firstplace that they had loitering 'deadbeats' in their establishment, then they may have done something about it before it got to the point of cancelling the show - bad decision for karaoke management for not informing the bar management.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

sorry Lonman

There are too many fallacies in what you say that I won't repeat myself nor link to my prior postings. There is nothing I have said or alluded to now that hasn't been dwelt on before! Instead of digesting what I have said and considering the possibilities you want to present theories to contradict the facts. And the MAIN fact is that the KJ's involved LOST their shows. I don't really care, in actuality, about the venue's management. I can't control what a venue ultimately does, and neither can you. I can advise other KJ's what to look for, possibly expect, what I have experienced and possible solutions. If you suggest they do nothing... chances are they will anyway, without your advice! If I get the attention of some and they benefit from it... that's all I can do!

Now I will address one of Lonman's incorrect statement which is biggest fallacy about business I often encounter. And it's a misconception I have encountered in both the business world and from people in everyday life. And all of you will benefit from digesting and understanding what I have to say about this fallacious belief - the belief that management MIGHT INTENTIONALLY BE looking for losses.

While there are loses that management might accept for tax REPORTING purposes --- a manager will NOT intentionally take CASH out of his bank account that has to be expensed for tax purposes and expect to derive a net income or cash flow benefit from doing so -- there is none.

Now what causes said confusion ---- the confusion is caused by a tax code that provides methods through which business can take deductions that reduce their profits without having to expend any cash in the process --- such as depreciation.

My scenario, however, does not involve taxes or any non-cash expense. My scenario provides a discussion of dollars and cents (REFERRED TO AS CASH FLOW) that any person, businessman or not, should be able to relate to!

And, the bottom line for any business is cash flow.... just at you hear in the news today that GM is running out of cash. The question of their bottom line profitability isn't the primary issue right now. And do you think that GM has been looking for losses all of these years to drive themselves to the brink of collapse?

And, though congress wants to see a business plan which GM, ironically, still doesn't have (which is exactly why they've reached the point where they are at), the question of cash is still "king".

And for a small restaurant, does anyone believe that they want to expend their cash, needlessly? Most restaurants fail within the first six months of existence and primary reason for their collapse is that they have run out of cash!

PS: Oh, and, BFFL don't blame yourself. There are others on the forum who have admitted to spending little and tipping "large", which doesn't nothing for the venues bottom line!

Especially since it is the same thread that has been recurring for a couple of years, with the same one person insisting there is this large problem and the same legion of people saying that 1) it isn't that big a deal and 2) that even if it was, it is the responsibility of the venue to do something about it.

It has been decided. But we have a clear case of the same type of behavior you often see in children -- they will keep asking the question until they get the answer they want. If that isn't forthcoming, they will continue asking until everyone just ignores them.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Yeah i'm too busy to go hunting for those posts you want everyone to hunt for to know what you said. If you can't link to them, then say it again.
KJ's that lose their shows due to deadbeat customers are simply losing those shows because the management isn't doing anything to curb those deadbeat customers or are not being made aware that these customers are even there. If a kj KNOWS this fact, & does nothing to bring it to the attention of the staff and/or management, then they deserve to lose the show IMO! If they bring it up & staff/management does nothing about it, then there is really not much you can do as hired/contracted entertainment. Not your position to do anything but entertain. You can contradict all you like (and sure you will), but you have yet to post possible feasable solutions that a kj can actually do without harming the reputation of the kj and /or show itself. You like to harp on the fact that your area has this HUGE problem, but admit it's not in your shows? So what is the point of everything. If it isn't happening at your shows, you must be doing something right! Looking at the poll - no one that has voted so far BUT you that hasn't put in the 'problem' vote does not see it as a problem in their shows.



I never said they were for fact, I said it was a possible reasoning into why they would allow a show to fail. And YES there are companies that do certain things to create intentional losses for tax write offs - my friend who is a successful CPA says it happens all the time.



Of course the bottom line is bringing in a healthy cashflow. WHich is why clubs hire karaoke or any entertainment. However, going back to my original sentiment, if the place allows people in their doors who are not spending, then that is the reason ultimately WHY they do not have a good cashflow to compensate for the entertainment & still make a profit.
GM (and the US auto industry) is going under because their quality sucks anymore & people are buying cars from overseas manus that have better construction, gas mileage, crash test rating & warranties. THAT is the bottom line.



Guess i'm lumped in with this statement too. I guess when I only have a few bucks to spend for a night and want to get out I should just stay home & do nothing instead of going out by myself to a club & maybe meeting up with friends & have a good time.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Only someone who is illiterate, or ignorant or self conscious of their own habits (or all three) would argue with me about the facts I have presented.

I have presented real life circumstances that have encountered and which have become problematic for some local KJ's and that have caused the demise of several local karaoke shows!

And...I have informed this forum that there are a few local KJs that acknowledge the problem and have responded by not letting freeloaders sing in at their shows

And what have my posts prompted as responses.
a. People who deny freeloaders exist
b. People who deny freeloaders can be a problem
c. Freeloaders who justify their own lack of spending (but they tip well)
d. People who say let the management handle it, even though management was the one "handling" it in the scenarios I provided and the shows were canceled
e. People who say let management handle it, ignoring the fact that there are KJ's locally who take it upon themselves to deal with the problem (gee maybe they know something)?

And what have my posts said?
a. There is a problem you may want to be aware of
b. There is a problem that may be beneficial for you to be observant about
c. There is a problem that could cause the demise of a fledgling show
d. There is a problem that management (locally) has never addressed
e. If you are concerned about you show, you may want to prepare a plan about how to handle the situation
f. If you show fails, it is a reflection on you -- not management.

Gee... and who are the ones perpetuating the discussion? Are they people responding to the facts or re-inventing them for their own benefit? And, furthermore, what benefit have I derived in revealing the problem?



Now..do you follow that quoted thinking? I present facts, and the poster quoted above (and some others) believe that the facts can be voted upon. So is that how it goes? Someone doesn't like the facts that Eric posted so let's vote on whether they ARE facts or not!

And.... even if we did agree with Eric, let's vote to leave it to management to resolve such a problem even though the WHOLE PURPOSE of Eric's diatribe was to warn us AGAINST relying SOLELY upon management to deal with this type of problem! Now that makes good sense, ignore it and take a vote!

And, of course, the obtuse quote noted above was from someone who initially tried to defend his lack of spending by stating he tipped well. And at one point he went off his rocker altogether and accused me of wanting him to drive drunk and to go off the wagon. and YADA YADA YADA. All the while, the scenario I presented involved a restaurant where there is plenty to choose from other than liquor!

The sky is falling the sky is falling The sky is falling the sky is falling The sky is falling the sky is falling The sky is falling the sky is falling The sky is falling the sky is falling The sky is falling the sky is falling The sky is falling the sky is falling

That's my impression of Eric's behavior. He keeps screaming it out but no one else is buying into it.

Based on his behavior here, I would never go to one of his shows. I can only imagine what a drama queen he must be in person.

Lonman

I am sorry if you took my "PS" personally; it was NOT all directed at you.

And, sorry, I am too too busy to keep repeating myself and then have people like Mcky57 decided that what I have to say can be decided by some vote. I have said all that I can say and hopefully some will find benefit from it.

Key word SOME! Some local kj's have experienced this problem. Like stated by MANY, IF your show is good, it will be busy where the freeloaders will not be a problem.


If the management agrees with that stance, then by all means don't let them sing - they do not have to be the bad guy as it is the managements decision - smart choice on the management.
If management does NOT agree with that & the kj brings it upon themselves to not allow certain singers due to spending habits, then this would go back to the kj's reputation.


Never denied they exist!

They are only a problem if the management of the club allows them to become a problem. Otherwise no they are not a problem in my and apparantly most other areas)

Spending habits may change from week to week for some people.

If management was 'handling it' before they cancelled the show, the show may not of been cancelled in the first place.

But as a singer these are shows I would avoid because the KJ is getting a reputation for not allowing people to sing just because they assume their spending habits aren't good enough. What if they felt my 2 drinks wasn't good enough spending & decided to not let me sing? How much does one need to spend in order to not be considered a freeloader - actually asked this of you once before that you conveniently avoided answering as well.


If a show fails, get a new show. If a new club asks why you aren't working somewhere, then you flat out tell them, the management of the other club allowed non-spenders to frequent the club and ultimately did not make any money from it. Then discuss with the new club how we can avoid that issue here & get spenders primarily in the seats.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Your restaurant scenerio is not the norm for the majority of karaoke shows I believe. Most karaoke shows are starting up at about the time the restaurant their club is attached to is closing. This could be a possible reason why the restaurant shows aren't bringing in alot - don't know, speculation. I wouldn't go to karaoke during dinnertime as my primary choice. Maybe after dinner I would pop in, but there is a good bet that if I wanted to go to karaoke in a restaurant, I would not want to listen to people singing while I am eating - especially some singers that can make you lose your appetite . I would most likely eat before I went to the place & maybe get a drink or two.
Restaurant karaoke during those hours are VERY uncommon around here. Like said most shows start at 9 and go to 1 or 2.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Freeloader: "The accomplished freeloader will at least try and collect free a PBR as compensation for their performance!"

I used to love Freddie the Freeloader on the Red Skelton show. Clem Kaddiddlehopper too, not to mention Gertrude and Heathcliff the seagulls.

Eric keeps on saying the venue doesn't know there are freeloaders. What a crock. The best people who would know are the bartenders and wait staff. Why? because they're the ones doing the actual serving. It won't take a server to long to know who the freeloaders are and just stop serving them and telling them to leave. Why? Because the wait staff want people in who pay and tip. Now that is simple economics.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Ericlater said in response to my post



The comparison is because a live band is 'entertainment' just the same as karaoke is and the sole function is to bring customers in.

If as you say the band IS the entertainment etc, are you saying that they don't need to attract listeners and their friends who will spend money. Are the customers already there ?

Whats it got to do with "participation" of the audience.

BTW my wife and I did own and run a pub for 10 years, with very successful karaoke and also live band nights.

One memorable night we had a band on and a couple came in to watch and ordered 2 pints of tap water. We served them it but they were well aware that we wouldn't be making a habit of it. WE AS MANAGEMENT made the decision - not the entertainment.

I think I - and most certainly my wife - would have been not a little upset if OUR policy or decision making was being usurped by a member of the paid entertainment !! Be it Karaoke, DJ, Hypnotist, live band, race night organiser etc etc.

_________________
[font=Fantasy][/font] "Travellin' at the speed of light"

We're lucky, we don't have that problem much. Some of our singers only drink water, but make it a point to eat dinner, and they tip well, us and bartenders etc. We want our singers to sound the best, that's why they come back. In our rotation, we give up our spot to singers that come in the bar to wait for dinner. Works for everyone. Regulars know that, and if it's near closing time, we give up our spots. I love to sing, but figure it works out when the nights with no singers, we have to sing all night.