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I'm with you, Lonman.
It's NOT my place to watch whether people spend or not, and it's certainly not my place to disallow them to sing.
If the venue owner wants to cut them off from singing, I make the venue owner tell them. I refuse to do someone else's dirty work for them. My reputation is based on treating everyone the same. That includes water drinkers (when and if I get them). Oftentimes those same "freeloaders" can help get the show going when everyone else is too scared to get up and sing, and they have done for me in the past. When a venue is just starting out and there's no bodies in the place, those "freeloaders" can also "fill out" the joint. Many times, if people walk into a place and see no one else, they turn right back around and leave again. But if they see a few bodies, they just might stay. My "freeloaders" have helped to get karaoke night started for me AND the venue and I don't forget them. And yes they buy pop oftentimes, but of course they don't chug it all night like beer drinkers do.
As for the two drink minimum before allowing anyone to sing, just how do you keep track of that, particularly when it gets busy? I have enough to do without checking up to see if someone has bought "enough". I'm a karaoke host, not a Karaoke cop.
Again, while I can understand Eric's take on it that with too many freeloaders, we don't make enough sales and could eventually lose our gig, but that doesn't mean I need to do the venue owner's job, and that is ensuring that "deadwood" gets removed. I'm hired entertainment. Not a bartender, waitress, or bouncer. I don't ask the bouncer to come up and que up and announce singers. Don't ask me to bounce.

No, there isn't. Simply not a problem for me, nor has it ever been.


nope. See above.
Again, no problem. In fact, as stated in my previous post, the two "freeloaders" have actually HELPED get my show off the ground, not once, but TWICE!

See above. No problem.


Not concerned due to no problem. Again, see above.

If my show fails, it might be a reflection on me, but I highly doubt it and I daresay it is more likely things beyond my control, including, but not limited to, venue management, venue staff, location, condition of venue, etc, etc.
I run a good show, I know what is approrpiate and when, and I know how to get a crowd into party (spending) mode.
I'm not denying your experiences, Eric, but they most decidely have NOT been mine. The "problem", as you describe it, doesn't exist for me.
I can't be any clearer than that. Now you can insist that I have my head in the sand, but the success of my shows proves that I don't. Not a problem. Period.

Nor does it seem to be a problem for anyone else. Of course an asteroid could hit the Earth. How many times have we heard about the great coming catastrophies that never happen. Great planning or as stated before "The sky is falling" routine.

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I should like to turn this forum into a positive informative forum with the idea of a positive attitude and promoting our business instead of accenting negatives. Please contribute to the Karaoke Bar thread with positive ideas and start ignoring the trolls.

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Including in the following is, for about the fourth time, just one example of how the freeloaders get away with what they do!



Now, let me add details that have been in other posts but not in the one above. The freeloaders become regulars. All the regulars are sitting around in small groups at tables. The freeloaders simply seat themselves at one of the tables with the other regulars!

Now, if I come in with my wife and she's not hungry that evening, so only I order! IS MY WIFE A FREELOADER? Should management say anything to her? What if "Joe The Freeloader" is seated with us, is he a freeloader? Should management say anything to him?

Now, let's say "Joe The Freeloader" sits with a different couple next week and still doesn't order, but both the other people had dinner. Is Joe a freeloader? The people he was seated with both had dinner.

And while the waitress knows Joe ordered nothing: maybe he's their father? maybe he's their brother? Maybe he's just a friend?

And what should the waitress say to the barmaid who is in charge about "Joe The Freeloader"?

And in spite of these details which have be presented before most of you will continue to insist that management MUST KNOW about the "freeloaders" -- there is no way, you say, that they couldn't! And because they must know about them their inaction clearly indicates, you say, that they have INTENTIONALLY decided to ignore them!

Well, I say RUBBISH to that silly theory!

As observant as I can be, and as good as I am identifying problems in general and problems with restaurant operations specifically, as the manager of a restaurant, even being there during karaoke, I don't think I would quickly recognize that there are freeloaders regularly attending my establishment. That is not a "problem" that those who run restaurants are trained to identify! People who are not spending money who accompany others who came to eat are not an uncommon occurrence at a restaurant!!!!!

Is this REALLY news to anyone?






Lonman,

I chose at the time you made that post to simply agree to disagree with you. However, since you keep concocting unreasonable suggestions to support an untenable position, ONE OF YOUR SUGGESTIONS WAS: the owner wants to lose money.. that's just ridiculous. Maybe he was dying and had no heirs so he just didn't care? Maybe he was trying to spite his wife who was spending too much money and decided to see how much money he could lose?

So, I am compelled to ask... how dare you suggest that after I have beaten the bushes for a job, personally contact my following to let them know about the new job, prepare a flier layout and other marketing material, and the like.... how dare you be so cavalier and suggest OH WELL get another gig???
And what about my following who is looking forward to the next show? Well, now I have to contact them all and let them know that the show has been canceled. And meanwhile, they should do what about attending karaoke? What they will do is go to someone elses show while I try to replace mine! Great thinking! What a business plan! AND following is not a very practical position either, particularly in light of the actual scenarios I have observed and shared above



So what if the Bar isn't very smart? Oh BUT IT WAS A RESTAURANT! And regardless, I am not going to allow myself to suffer if the establishment is poorly managed so long as there is anything I can do to SAVE MY GIG! IT IS MY GIG. A KJ is expendable as far as most management is concerned, even if they have a great show. That is a short-sighted philosophy, but I can't change it. And there isn't much I can change about how management runs their business and responds to freeloaders. Nor can I change how you, Lonman, run your business. But I am in control of mine!

Eric there you go again. Yes people who own several businesses will have one to lose money for tax purposes. But regardless, as I andmany others said before, the staff of a bar/restaurant/bowling alley or whatever, know who the non-spenders/freeloaders are. They are the ones serving.

Now if the staff allows it to go on, other than not letting them sing, what can you do realisticly, to change it. You have no authority to bar them. If it is that bad, then it's time for you to hit the bricks and find a better venue. You may control your show but there's no way in hell you control the venue, unless you own it.

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We do limit the bag lady and homeless to only one song per night. Those with cowboy boots or hats are only permitted to sing every other round. The gals that put out are given special priveledges and sometimes bumped to the head of rotation. people with ties can only sing Sinatra.. ARE YOU PEOPLE NUTS OR What?Please clue me in...

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A couple of years ago I posted a real live event which might be appropriate again. years ago as a singer we were doing the Bar Bazzar in Fort Collins on sun nights. It was an institution always packed and sometimes a rotation of 50. A stranger came in one night and as one who knows I knew he was homeless. He was clean and very polite and singing gave him an outlet and a sense of being.

I never expected to see him again but the next Sun he showed I talked to him. He was living under the bridge a few blocks north. I gave him a 20 dollar bill and told him to pack up and meet me at the bridge at a certain time the next day. I took him to a barber shop and the to good will and bought him a suit. Then to the mission and told them to take care of this kid.

I did not see him the next Sun and wondered Then the next Sun he showed up and proudly put a 20 dollar bill on the table and announced he had a job and a place to stay.. He still did not drink but bought soft drinks and tipped the wait staff generously.

I have not seen him for 10 years but I know he thinks about me and has probably helped many since then. A bar can be violent at times then a haven for those who need help at a critical time. If I go into a business and do not buy but chat with my friends I am not a freeloader. This thread has to be one of the most assinine here yet..

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God I loved this post. HAHA!

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Yep becoming friends with other tables, see this happen all the time. No problem so far.


According to you she would be freeloading that night & probably should stay home, I see no probablem as of yet. Since spending habits change for people from week to week.
If someone came & sat at your table that you did not want there, tell them to move - pretty simple.


He is a freeloader if he's trying to get free food & drink & sitting with people that don't want him at the table, the they need to inform either him to move or tell the bar staff/management to move him. This is where management should step in & tell the guy to leave.


Yep maybe he's a relative.

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UM I would think it could be as simple as "Hey there is a guy out there not spending & moving from table to table when people have asked him to move, let's get him out of here."


AGAIN, if management doesn't know, INFORM THEM!!!!!!! But they would have to pretty friggin dense to not see the problem, or the barstaff for that matter.


I have said rubbish to all of yours so far. Sorry, it's not a huge problem here & most other places it seems, just in your neck of the woods.


How is that a problem if someone who doesn't spend comes in with someone who does? Flipping THAT scenerio around again, maybe that spender wouldn't have come in in the first place if their friend that didn't spend didn't go with them?


!


After reading all your posts on restaurants, I would not work in one if the freeloader problem is that HUGE in restaurants!
You can run yours the way you like, I work WITH the clubs I am at & don't take it upon myself to ban anyone from singing - THAT is my reputation that's at stake.

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In restaraunt/bars you play soft dinner music then a 8 or 9 the regular show starts.

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Last Sat night I crossed over into being a serious singer AND a freeloader. Our Sat show had its monthly pre-emption by the singing cowboy so the Friday karaoke hosts and some others of us who wanted to sing rather than listen made plans to visit the competition down the highway. When we got there, the host had decided he didn't have enough of a crowd and put away his karaoke to go hear the singing cowboy. My friends knew the bar owner and we got to talking and she wanted to get us something to drink. We knew we weren't going to stay so didn't want liquor and she insisted on getting us sodas/water and not accepting even a tip. She didn't make anything on us that night but gained some admiring potential new customers. Next time we go and can stay we will definitely be spending.

Then we headed back down the road to the bar next to our venue to check out their show. It had just one speaker which was turned up to distortion levels and youngun's were screaming "Highway to Hell" so loud you couldn't hear a person talk if they had their lips to your ear. (They also screamed "I Am A Man of Constant Sorrow" just as loudly which was pretty funny.) One of my friends wanted to sing but I was afraid I wouldn't be able to find the key with their sound system so I didn't participate. (Plus the two songs I thought I would sing weren't in their 12,000 song book, believe it or not.) So I guess that made me a serious singer. We knew we couldn't last long in there so we ordered cokes as we wouldn't have sober up time if we had liquor. The bar tendress refused to let us pay for them. As we probably won't return there, I left the money on the bar anyway when we left.

So there's two different freeloader scenarios--or maybe the same one but with different outcomes. Both were the decision of management to allow it. In one case it gained future paying customers, in the other it really didn't matter. But both probably had the same intent.

Timberlea,

Unless the tax code in Canada gives back $2 for every dollar lost, no.... no business, particularly a retail business is set up to intentially lose money for tax purposes. You can believe and say what you want to the contrary.....but facts are facts, ignorance is ignorance, and BS is just that --- BS.

Generally speaking, most of those responding to various aspect of this topic want to create scenarios to fit your limited world and understanding of business.

But I'll remind you, as I've done before, that the thread in which I initially made my observations about freeloaders was created by a KJ who was upset because management threw out a singer who management deemed to be spending too little at his show.

In response to the OP, more than 80% of the members posting were sympathetic to the complaining KJ and critical of management.

So, while most posters responding to me today believe you should "leave it to management" to handle such matters as “who is spending money” , the majority of this forum had a completely different viewpoint two years ago!

I think that sums it up completely and concisely, but for your review I provide the following:

THE ORIGINAL POST (NOTE THE PROBLEM AS SPECIFICALLY DEFINED BY THE OP HIMSELF, A KJ)


First respondent:



Second respondent:



AT THIS POINT I POSTED MY OPINION AGREEING WITH THE OWNER

Next respondent after me:



PLEASE NOTICE THE CONCERN NOW DEVELOPING ABOUT KJ’S REPUTATIONS AS A RESULT OF OWNERS TOSSING CUSTOMERS

Fourth Respondent


A TWIST ON THE SAME POINT OF VIEW


ONE RESPONSE TO THE PRECEDING TWIST



THEN, FINALLY, SOMEONE WITH AN EXPERIENCE SIMILAR TO MINE
AND THE WISDOM AND BUSINESS ACUMEN TO KNOW IT NEEDED TO BE HANDLED BY HIM



SO…. CUSTOMERS DO BECOME AWARE OF FREELOADERS, KJ’S CAN BECOME AWARE OF FREELOADERS AND….. KJ’S CAN HANDLE THE PROBLEM BEFORE IT HAS A PERMANENT AND DELETERIOUS IMPACT ON HIS/HER SHOW --- "less karaoke for the paying customers" - which has been one of my points all along.

And note, further, that he had but one freeloader, and feared having 3-4 more just as I have described as to what I had experienced

And another noteworthy response:


HERE’S ANOTHER KJ WHO IS AWARE OF THE FREELOADERS


In direct response to the OP:



THE FOLLOWING MEMBER IS LOCAL TO ME: And while he has also done shows at restaurants he didn’t note that in this post



What Dave didn’t note in the previous post is that most venues here are not looking to hire entertainers to satisfy their existing clientele, most places are looking for entertainment to increase their clientele (read "to increase clientele" AS "profits")

Well since I didn't actually post anything in that thread I can say it was managements right & they did what they felt was necessary. No blame on the kj for doing something they are not hired to do.
Funny you had to go back 2 years to find someone who felt like you. Times have changed. Plus you had the time to go & search for the thread to copy it but didn't post the actual link. Most of the people in THAT discussion, are not ones who mentioned anything here in THIS discussion. So you can't say WE'VE changed our minds. It almost looks as though 1 person actually felt it was their job to do something about the one person that wasn't spending.

http://karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php? ... ht=#141890
There is the link to the original discussion with people that either no longer post very often or are banned altogether.

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Hey Lonnie, I was there! And my post appears on the first page, illustrating that throwing one non-spender out can and did, lead to others, who were spending, leaving along with the evicted. I related that event because I thought the Bar owner made a silly decision.

The point is, it was the bar owner's decision, not the KJ.

Now, a few posts later, Eric included the following in relation to non-spenders:



So, in Eric's world, he would take it upon himself to exclude the non-spender resulting in the non-spender and his "crowd" of spenders leaving. Maybe the silly bar owner I referenced would be Ok with that, but many would not, I'm sure.

So basically this discussion has been going on for 2 YEARS, "Oy Vey!"

Rosario

Now I did say most. But yes it was ultimately the managements decision, bad or good, MANAGEMENT dealt with it. Chances are he may of lost some customers because of it because a couple of people not spending in a crowd is not going to hurt the bottom line.


Exacly, there are always people that will be in a bar that do not drink/spend. We get them too, never denied it, but if anyone tried to do anything about it by kicking them out, then the spending crowd that is with them will leave. Non-spenders have their place in the world as well, i've had some that come in that were really good singers that kept other spenders there longer because they want to hear them again. To whine & moan about a handful in a crowd is dumb!

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But only because someone doesn't want to let it go & thinks the kj should ultimately decide what goes on in a bar as far as spending - even though he is nothing more than contracted help TO ENTERTAIN, not police spenders!

Time goes by so fast, didn't even realize it was this long, it just keeps moving from thread to thread or gets brought up in a different wording stating the same thing that brings it all on again.
Agree to disagree & let it go, it's not a problem for most, seems it's the minority thought and/or small area of the world that it is a problem.

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