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I can't find this subject, I need a conditioner, what should I get?

Is Furman the manufacturer I should use and what model should I get?

Furman is the manufacturer and what one you should get depends on your needs. At the very least you should get one of the 8 plug line conditioners. It's form factor is up to you and depends on your setup. I have the rack mounted PL-Plus.

Here's Furman's web site:

http://www.furmansound.com/

Just remember the PL- series are rack mounted and the PST- series are the power strip type items (great for your home theater too ).

Just get the one that fits your setup.

One thing everyone should know. Most of these conditioners -- don't. They are essentially rack-mounted surge-protecting power strips. As such they are very useful, and I have several of them. But don't think you can plug into dirty power from a generator and get it "conditioned". They don't clean power.

The UPS that was pooh-poohed actually does a much better job of line conditioning, assuming it has a big enough capacity. If you don't have a power amp in the rack, you could find one that would work that would only weigh 20 pounds or so. If there is a large power amp plugged into it, then it would be prohibitively heavy.

I own two Furman 8ML and one 8M. All have worked great for me -- I don't care about the line voltage meter.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Mcky: While there is no electrical engineering definition for a line conditioner but the widely accepted on is a unit that simply assures consistent voltage and current to tit's outlets. By that definition all the Furman rack mount equipment does line conditioning as they have surge and voltage protection as well as noise filtration. By most definitions that's a conditioned line, not sure what you're definition of line conditioning is.

Brownout situations are the only thing a UPS will handle that the Furman conditioner won't. But like you said you'd need a pretty big UPS to handle the draw demand for decent sized amps. The Merit series you mention doesn't have any voltage variance protection in it but should have filtration giving even, regular voltage.

Consistent voltage? In what way? What possible line condition can they protect against?

Are you telling me that you can plug into 100v and they will increase it to 115? Or that an overvoltage of 140 will be stepped down?

One of the most common cases of noisy power is a generator, which can not only have noise but voltage fluctuation. These units do nothing to make that type of power usable. Their noise reduction theoretically works, but in the United States it is extremely rare to see non-60-cycle noise in the mains power.

Also, most people don't know this, but most surge protectors -- don't. When it comes to lightning, which is the most common instance of damaging surge, most surge protectors are not truly effective. The Furman only does 6500 amps, which is not enough for a truly damaging surge.

In short, I don't think you will find the Furman units do anything to protect against any of that. If they did, I think you would find people abandoning expensive generators for cheap ones.

That being said, I like the Furman units and use them. I just don't expect to be able to plug into a generator, and I won't be surprised if we get a lightning strike at one of my outdoor gigs and it fries some of my gear.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Yes, that's exactly what I"m telling you. Trading current for voltage is what they're made to do. So long as you don't pull more power than it can keep constant then you'll keep working. When the power output becomes unsteady the PL-Plus will simply shut down, protecting your equipment. Think voltage regulator for the line level voltage features.

Most of the surge suppressors you see in the stores, the cheap ones, are nothing more than one way gates (transient diode) that erode over time and don't provide any protection. The little protection light lets you know when you're not getting any surge protection because the diode is no longer functional. There are other technologies that are a bit more expensive but have longer service cycles and I don't know what Furman uses. Might be an MOV (Metal oxide somthing, can't remember) or one of the selenium suppressors. MOVs operate better but have a shorter lifespan.

We've had lightning strike the building I am in and it cooked the audio gear and computer equipment on one circuit except for the gear plugged into the PL-Plus. When I got into Karaoke I decided that would be the best protection I could ask for. Don't discount that it won't protect against lightning. Oh and if you loose something when plugged into them they have an X year warranty that will cover losses. Don't remember the time frame but it's a couple of years.

The MOV that Gryf mentioned is a Metal Oxide Varistor. The cost about 25 cents each, and unfortunately, they are all that's in a cheap conditioner.


To expand on what Gryf said, the very best conditioners ( I built mine, but I know that they are manufactured as well, and run around $200+) will:

Maintain Voltage ( no surges AND no drops) within reasonable parmeters ( if the source voltage drops 70vac not a whole lot you can do.. )

Maintain voltage FREQUENCY

Eliminate transients, noise, and ripple.

Provide overload protection

Filter harmonics

Incorporate a small UPS for shutdown time- usually connected to only one or two marked outlets.

Include an external connection for ground if required.

It's actually way cheaper to build, and not all that hard.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

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Sorry, simply don't believe it. If that were the case, you would see them attached to cheap generators all over the place, powering computers and music systems. You don't see that. The circuitry to do that type of thing reliably is much more expensive when it comes to 15 amps.

Now a real power conditioner will do that. But those are hundreds of dollars. A voltage regulator that can handle 15 amps with less than 2% voltage fluctuation is not cheap.

I know of no mains power in the US that can receive any significant benefit from simple noise suppression. The AC-DC conversion that is done in the power supplies of music gear easily handles the type of thing you will see on US mains power.


You will have better luck with the PL8 than a typical "surge protector", which is rated for about 3,000 amps (or 100 joules). The PL8 is about 6500 amps (or 200 joules). Real lightning protection requires 35,000 amps or so, or 1000 joules.

As an electronics tech who repaired many a lighting-struck circuitry, I specified systems to reject this type of thing. And people rarely went for them, because they were just too darned expensive and you still can't really guarantee the entire system would stay up since protecting everything was prohibitive.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

PL-Plus has all those features. it's a $200 item, but nice overall. You don't have to believe me, you can just read up on it and decide if they're lying or not.

They aren't lying, but they aren't claiming voltage regulation either. They are claiming noise suppression and overvoltage protection. No problem there. But that doesn't do anything useful. And the 6500 amps surge protection is again, better than a power strip but nothing like lightning protection.

Once again, for what they are I think they are reasonably priced and worth it. I own three Furman units. But let's not get too enamored of their capabilities. The power conditioning parts of their claims, while sounding nice, have no real benefit. You haven't heard people here, or perhaps more importantly the LAB lounge and other live sound forums, saying "couldn't play at this place until I plugged in my power conditioner". Or "I play just fine connected to a cheap generator as long as I use my Furman". Or "had a bunch of hum and noise until I plugged into the line conditioner". It just won't make any difference compared to a power strip. A UPS can, but the kind that would do the job weighs 100+ pounds and costs a grand or more.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Lets go back to school. We will start with the SCR

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Any recommendations?

I use the Furman ML8, which is the low-cost version with lights. Costs about 80 dollars on the street. I find the lights useful for reading slips.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Put a fast blow fuse in the primary of all gear and make sure they share a common ground to earth ground. Power lines have surge protectors for lightening but if it hits close there is absolutely nothing that can protect. I have seen the results of direct hits on broadcast towers or TV antennas. I have replaced 3 phase 440 volt motors in irrigation wells. It is unpredictable. In a lightening storm do not wear headphones.

Line conditioners are over rated and if you do karaoke for 5 years they might have served their purpose a few times. A hundred dollar strip is recommended but I would not go overboard or get super excited about it.

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Thanks. Another question, is the 8 for 8 plug ins?

Mcky: You're right they're not true voltage regulators on the PL series. Furman has a different series that does do full voltage regulations from 97v - 138v stepping it to 120V. My audio director did say the PL series does step it down but doesn't move it up, those are a different series.

And yes, they are a couple of hundred dollars more expensive. Sorry for muddling the content here, my understanding on the PL series was incorrect.

Understandable. I respect you for posting when you found you were a bit mistaken. I make mistakes constantly, and try to own up to them when I do. It is actually a badge of honor to make a mistake and know it, because that is how most real learning is accomplished.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The power supplies in all appliances are designed to operate from 90 volts to 130. I have very seldom seen line voltage lower than 120 or more than 125 volts. And I have seen old buildings with knob and tube wiring. Transient spikes from inductive loads such as cooler motors can sometimes be a problem but cause more interference than hazards.

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In the building I'm in an improperly isolated cooling circuit has caused line loads to drop for a few seconds. We didn't know it until we expanded the office a bit and started having equipment shut off on us. It was dropping below 85v, the line at which our voltage regulators shut off. Only time I've ever seen that happen.

Thanks for your understanding Mcky!

You may wish to check on power conditioners for medical equipment. That's where I found the specs to build mine.

One important point. Regulators of any sort to not maintain AC FREQUENCY. That requires some IC circuitry that I have only found specified for medical equipment.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."