Karaoke Forums

Hello everyone. This is my first post, other than my newbie intro.

I need to know some BASICS. Here's the situation:
We have used a KJ in our small bar for several years, doing three nights a week. He had all his music on a laptop and would download a song as it was requested, if he didn't already have it on his computer.
Last friday, he up and quit on us, leaving us in a bind for karaoke. We now want to do our own karaoke. My son has some DJ experience and one of my bartenders does KJ, but uses someone else's equipment and music.

We know what equipment we need, but are ignorant as to how to obtain music. We would like to download music and not buy discs. What is the best way to get music, what can we expect to pay and more importantly, what licensing is required. We are licensed through ASCAP and BMI. Do we need any other licensing? We don't want to break any laws, but also don't want to spend any more than necessary.

I'm sure we will have more questions as we go, but this is a start.

Step #1: PURCHASE music. (what a novel idea that is!) Some is available by download, but if you WANT TO STAY LEGAL you'll have to buy discs as well to make your set complete. Not all the tracks your singers will want will be on a download site. If you purchase a preloaded drive off the net or expect to download karaoke music free, then you're simply a snake, please leave now.

Step #2: No licensing necessary for karaoke unless your local city has special "entertainment or cabaret" licensing

Step #3: If you are "licensed" through ASCAP, make sure your license covers karoake use and not just a JLO (jukebox) license. If it doesn't, you will pay an additional fee.... to both.

It's obvious you don't want to "spend anymore than necessary" but how much is "necessary?"

You're basically coming to a site where a large number of members "do karaoke" not as a hobby but as a way of living and asking how to "cut them out of the loop."

Wouldn't that be similar to me opening a burger stand next to your bar and giving away free beer because the beer doesn't cost me anything anyway? I just download another keg whenever I get low and give it away while you can continue on trying to sell it.

You say your person "up and quit" buy don't say why.... how much were you paying this person? Was it simply a hobby for them? Professional KJ's don't just "up and quit" without good cause and they do much more than just stand there and play tracks to sing to. I'd suggest you look for a reputable KJ in your area.

So you're certainly honest enough to admit that you don't want discs and want to download everything, but don't really wanna pay squat.

There's a difference between being economical about your system or just doing the bare minimum for as little as possible.

I think us KJ's should start a beer distributorship and just sell it a nickle higher than the wholesale price directly to the public in paper cups and save the hassle of having to deal with bars, return bottles or even wash glasses. Then they'd know what it's like to be on the wrong end of "cut out the middleman."

Now, How else can we help you?

Gawd damn that was one hell of a welcome wasn't it!

At least the guy was being honest & asking how to stay legal & what to expect to pay! At the end of the day, if Shep's son is a DJ and is going to do the karaoke, then he will become every bit as legitimate a KJ as you & everyone else here. His time is no less valuable just because his folks own the bar.

It seems to me that the old 'KJ' is the problem here if he was downloading pirate karaoke, hopefully he left because he's been busted.

Legally purchasing and downloading all the music from online sites is going to be prohibitively expensive. You will generally find this averages out to about $3 per track.

You are better off buying the foundation sets from Sound Choice to get off the ground, ripping them, and then downloading some fillers, or getting the "bricks" from Sound Choice. Most regard Sound Choice as the benchmark of quality Karaoke tracks. http://www.soundchoicestore.com/

You can also get good recent compilations of Karaoke tracks from ChartBuster Karaoke, http://www.chartbusterkaraoke.com/. Their 6-pack cd-gs with 100 songs are nice and reasonably priced.

One way to pull alot of songs together quickly and inexpensively is by purchasing SUPER CD-Gs (SCDG) that are made for CAVS players. These hold over 1,000 songs each. These will only play in CAVS or PCs, but you can rip them to a PC and they will work. You can often find these on Ebay for under $100 each, sometimes much less. The quality varies and is usually not as good as Sound Choice. These can be ripped with the karaoke file converter from www.kjamp.com.

No matter how you slice it, your Karaoke collection will be the most expensive asset you purchase.

Don't fall for the temptation of "loaded Karaoke hard drives", that is illegal and unethical and you won't get any support here.

Honestly, for a bar owner (speaking as a former bar owner, as well as someone with an MBA),

The ROI on this type of project is very, very low.

It really would be more cost effective to just go with a reputable KJ and avoid all the up-front costs.

I understand what you're saying, however most bar owners in this situation really have no idea what music costs. Would Shep be willing to spend $1,000 purely on music? $10,000 on music or more?

Hey Lonnie; Just as an off-hand guess, how much have you spent over the years on music?

And you're right: just buy some equipment, download the music and call yourself a "professional." No experience necessary, no knowledge of anything like sound engineering, music, entertaining, nothing. (Sorta like buying a hammer with instructions and immediately calling yourself a Professional Master Carpenter.)

I doubt the old KJ "got busted." I'm suspicious whenever I hear "up and quit" because there's usually a darker story hidden somewhere.

But Shep needs to find a truly reputable KJ and see what the difference is because simply building your own to save money many times doesn't save money at all.

I think your reply is unfair to me, not knowing my reasoning or circumstances.

I am asking the questions NOT because I wanted to get free or illegal music. I figure the cost of karaoke is part of the cost of doing business. I posted because I want to do what is right and needed to know what I needed to do.

I just find that discs are a pain in the butt and it is easier to use a computer. I didn't know you had to have the actual discs. Forgive my ignorance.

Karaoke in my bar is a part of my making a living. It is what brings my crowd in. I am a small place and need to keep the cost down as much as possible. I don't know how much cost is "necessary". Can I expect to spend $100 or $10,000 to start? I am willing to spend what I have to.

I am not trying to cut anyone "out of the loop". Many bars have their own karaoke setups and KJ's, and since we do karaoke 3 times a week, it's time to have an employee to do my karaoke. He will be paid for doing karaoke.

About my DJ. He was a reputable, well liked local KJ, and has been around for years. He did more than just play a song to sing to. He kept the crowd involved and the karaoke running smoothly. Everyone loked him. I was paying him for 3 nights a week and paying a month in advance. He called last week, just hours before time to start and said he was burned out and wasn't going to do karaoke for awhile. We heard he has since sold his karaoke business. He still owes me almost $1500 for the month of March.

I absolutely agree. You stated that you wanted to download music and pay for it. Anyone who assumed you were looking for illegal downloads was stepping way over the line. I apologize for some of our KJs who are worried that you are taking away their livelihood. They can get a bit bitter as they long for the good old days.

As a bar owner, you have a great opportunity to work with downloaded music. If you have an internet connection, presumably high speed, you could easily download songs from Tricerasoft.com or other sources as your singers request them. This would allow you to build a library of songs that *will* be sung. Just get a gift pack of $100.00 for 100 songs.

That being said, you probably want to start out with Supercore 2008 as a starting point, as almost all those songs are great to have in your library and the cost per song will be in the 25 cent range instead of a dollar a song. Also, you may want to track frequently sung songs that have poor versions and buy the occasional custom disc from SoundChoice to upgrade your music quality.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

SHEP: How on earth did this guy talk you into paying a month in advance? You'll never recover your March investment, I'd venture to say.

Investing in music, most will say here, is the MOST costly part of getting karaoke going. If you've had someone in your place who had a good collection of music and was very interactive with the crowd, you risk alienating many of them by skimping at all on the music. The experienced KJs on this site know that there are probably 1000 songs that you need to get a pretty decent start - frankly there are probably 500 songs that are the bare bones - you just have to figure out what those are - those same old 500 songs that are sung on an ongoing basis year after year.

Expect to spend at least $2500 (my guess) for a decent collection that will keep your former singers coming back for more - and do get the discs and rip to computer - you won't regret that. Ripping new music becomes an ongoing task when you run a computer setup. If you maintain rapport with the former singers, talk to them. If they've been attending karaoke at your place, give them an opportunity to tell you what they just have to have to sing...and explain your situation.

If, on the other hand, the former KJ took these singers with him, you're starting from square one. There is a place local to me (in NW Washington State) that had a KJ for YEARS ... I think 11 or so years...that kept the place PACKED. He got burned out and left. They tried a number of local yokels who weren't nearly of that same caliber and of course all of a sudden 'karaoke doesn't work here.' They then resorted to bringing in their own system (mistake), used an employee as a host, and didn't spend the money they needed to on music. I dropped by there one night, after having chatted with the manager while they were between hosts, to see what they had done. The host hadn't showed up. There was nobody in the bar waiting to sing ... do that a few times and you're dead in the water.

If your son is willing to do this, you need to make sure he understands what he's up against, as do you, with regard to the music and the system. Keeping your music up to date is an ongoing task; making sure your books are up to date and in good condition is a constant task; marketing your place is a constant task, especially since you will have in-house and you will lose potential customers who may have come in as followers of the KJ.

There are many sites that offer custom CDGs - these are expensive. Go to Ebay to check out karaoke music but be forewarned that many are selling pirated sets (look for 15 sets of the same disc series). No way to tell until you actually have the discs in your hands whether they are originals or illegal copies. Look at what is offered in the UK as well. Watch for KJs in your area getting out of the business. Music will be your biggest and ongoing expense if you do it right.

The Chartbuster sets at time will come up on Ebay. Soundchoice is another brand that is pretty reliably good. Cavs players offer an alternative but bring their own sets of issues (slow loading, etc.)

Best of luck with this endeavor. I think in your case I'd be looking for an outside KJ to bring in their skillset but understand that as an owner you feel you may be able to lower your overhead by doing it yourself.

Since it's your bar and you've been running karaoke in there already you have a huge advantage. You know what's being sung in your room. You can be well on your way with just 500 songs or so.

Hack I'll bet I could cover 90-95% of my room's requests with 500-600 songs now that I know what they are.

As mickey suggested I'd pick up the Supercore set and download the rest from any of the sites. Buykaraokedownloads is the cheapest. I think it's legit. Their address is in Las Vegas.

first of all, SHEP, welcome to the site.

You'll find we KJs are fanatacially obsessed with straightening out misconceptios with Computerized Karaoke.

Almost all of us started out with Discs, and converted to Computer afterwards.

Unfortunately for you, there is a huge influx for the past several years, people that were illegally obtaining complete libraries. From the download sites to Ebay to disc traders, these illegals gave the computerized folks a bad rep... and I think you unwittingly fell into that trap.

From your initial post, it even sounds as if your former Host MAY have been doing the same thing. Downloading on the fly songs just hits me weird... usually that's from a shared site, NOT legal downloads. It takes me a few minutes to do it with Selectatrack, so the thought of downloading during a show is very odd. Don't get me wrong, it CAN be done. There are KJS on here that DO profess to doing it.

You said your KJ up and quit on you. Three nights a week for a long time? What was he paid, if I may be so bold? Most of us PROFESSIONAL Karaoke hosts wouldn't up and quit, certainly not leaving you in a lurch like that... , especially on a long term gig, unless we weren't getting paid well, or were offered a better deal somewhere else. Did your KJ do that? Did he recommend someone else to take over?

Many of us hosts have spend YEARS collecting music for karaoke, refining our collections. From many manufacturers, some of whom aren't even in business anymore. I've personally spend $40K JUST on karaoke cdgs. (Note: I had DVDs, but sold them, so I discount that $11K investment nowadays - still have my old Pioneer Lasers, though).

You will still need an essential core, and then say the best of collections just to kinda get started.

You CAN download some songs legally, say from Selectatrack and a few others that are mentioned on this site. But you'll find the $1-$4 per song a bit much to grasp when you look at the sheer amount it will cost to get the songs you want.

Start SLOWLY... I'd recommend spending $3K initially on music, and then continue to buy discs, SC especially for 70s & 80s ... look for their Packs... that will help tremendously.

Honestly Shep,

You're true best bet is to hire a reputable KJ. There is a LOT more to running a successful karaoke show than having equipment and music! An established KJ will bring folks into your bar, and increase your revenue from the getgo.

You're looking at AT LEAST a $10K investment in music and equipment just to get started, and then a reacurring expense for new music and equipment upgrades thereafter.

Then there's the actually running of the show... Keeping track of rotation, encouraging people sing (i.e. hosting), etc.

Why put yourself through all of that??

Hire a professional, and let him take the stress of all that off your shoulders. It would take you at least a year and a half to recoup your expenses from the initial purchase, and that's not counting revnue loss as your "in house" KJ learns on the job!! Ack!

Perhaps what you REALLY need is advice on how to hire a reputable KJ??

_________________
Good music, good friends, howling good times!

why put yourself through all taht?

My experience shows for long term gigs, buying your own is far preferable to merly getting someone to come in and host it. That's a short term thing (with apologies to folks like Lonnie who has had unbelieveable success with the Thunderbird Lounge)... but most bar owners that see the advantages of owning it, and only paying a good rate for a good kj (remember he said he has a bartender who's done it) in the LONG Term works for them.

Less than a couple years, sure, go ahead and hire someone. But longer than that, it's advantageous to get your own equipment and control it yourself.

Hmmm... if the bartender was so good at it, then why is he a bartender?

It will take 32 months to justify the initial expense (that's assuming $150 - $175 a night KJ with equipment, less paying half that to your bartender host - your results may vary).

In addition, there are other factors. What is the drawer take now? If karaoke is already established than it should remain level or even drop (as folks who liked the other guy go where he's playing now)... versus bringing in a well established guy or gal with a following who should give you a bump.

How is this equipment being purchased? I don't know too many small businesses that can afford that kind of ready cash. Now factor in the interest on the loan!

What if karaoke isn't a money maker? Now you've got 10K of equipment and a loan to pay for something that isn't generating revenue!!

A guy who runs a business this way won't be doing it long...

Sorry, but I'm going side with the math over your "experience".

_________________
Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Most of us here are karaoke hosts, so we are going to come down in general on the side of you hiring us. A good host makes a big difference. And a DJ who quietly sits behind a screen and spins records is not all that good a candidate, to be honest.

One mistake a DJ makes is to think that people want to listen to "good" music every so often. Some may, but your base is your singers. If you "wait to have enough singers" or only let people sing so often, you may not get the singer attendance you would get if you let people sing. The more singers you can get there, the more likely the non-singers are to walk in, see something happening, and stay. Eventually they come even though they don't sing. You might do some dance breaks, but don't shortchange your singers or they will disappear. After they disappear, then so does everyone else.

Singer attendance is what you are looking for to jumpstart the show. I just went to a little town that has two bars in it. One has karaoke on Wednesday, one on Thursday. On each day one bar is packed and the other empty. Are they all singers? Not at all. But the place with karaoke is the one that is happening. The one playing recorded music is empty. The only difference is that the singers show up.

WRT investment, I think you can spend $5,000 to reach the point where you can download music on demand as singers want it. If you were close by and paid me that much, I would supply a basic rig and come in and make it work. It would be fun to do.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Actually you made my point for me. I said two yeasr!

3 nights a week, and around 50 weeks a year for this long term contract.

Karaoke can be anywhere from $100-$150 a night, especially for the long term contracts and multiple nights per week. Weekends are of course more exensive.

But even going with a median of $125 a night times 150 shows per year, that comes up to $18,750, just for ONE year.

For that, you can build a pretty damned good system with ten grand for music. By tthe second year, you've pretty much paid for all your cdgs, and you can continue to invest and have a heckuva respectable library.

My experience is doing shows, and analizing business solutions for bars and other venues. I've been doing it for over sixteen years, and been a dj since 1984.

I think I know what I'm talking about. At least a little bit.

HEY SHEP! Welcome to the Forum. You say that:

"About my DJ. He was a reputable, well liked local KJ, and has been around for years. He did more than just play a song to sing to. He kept the crowd involved and the karaoke running smoothly. Everyone loked him. I was paying him for 3 nights a week and paying a month in advance. He called last week, just hours before time to start and said he was burned out and wasn't going to do karaoke for awhile. We heard he has since sold his karaoke business. He still owes me almost $1500 for the month of March."

Maybe you should have purchased your previous KJ's "business" before he sold it to someone else........minus the $1,500 that he owed you of course. For you to do this "legally", you would have had to get the original discs that he ripped to his computer's hard drive as well. Otherwise, he could just keep selling his "business" over and over again and you'd have 20 people in your town that were in the karaoke "business" who all owned "copies" of this guys music collection on a hard drive but with no discs to make them 100% legal. Some folks don't really care about doing it legally and some folks REALLY CARE about the legality issues. Do you really think that ANY of those karaoke hosts that brag about having over 100,000 songs have paid for every one of them? I'm not sure if I've been to an entirely 100% legal show ever since the ability to copy a karaoke CD became available to anyone with 100 bucks and a computer.

Being a BAR OWNER, you might want to be extra careful about obtaining illegal music files though. If the karaoke manufacturers wanted to come down on someone to make an example of, a bar owner would at least have some assets that they could file a law suit over. A local KJ, or a competing bar owner, might even "drop a dime" on you and report you to the "powers that be" in an effort to shut you down for using pirated music files. Hiring an illegal KJ with pirated files might not put you at the same risk? HIring a legal KJ with discs to prove he owns his library legally is always the best way to go. Good Luck with your new direction.

Shep

Look at the CAVS machines and Players...Google it and they come preloaded with basic karaoke titles. - Wish you luck ..unless of course you're in my area Then you should hire ME

....this thread cracks me up. Children can be soooo cruel

Shep, here is my opinion:

First off, don't PARTICULARLY listen to those that say you should hire a new KJ with their own equipment. I myself have been a KJ for almost 6 years two nights a week, but anyone should be able to see that if you do the math, it makes perfect sense for the venue to own its own equipment. If ti didn't make sense, then the KJs would rent their equipment too, which is what bar owners are essentially doing (renting the PA from the KJ), and which is obviously just financially unsound for a bar owner that can do the leg work to put together a good PA.

As for the KJ, you can certainly hire someone with expierience but still have them work on your system with your song library, and pay them much, much less. I don't want to lose my pay of $175.00 a night at my gig, but I know in the back of my head that my bar owner would certainly be smart to install his own system. The math just adds up!! There are at least a dozen bars here in town where the bar owns the system and hires a KJ to work the show. And they pay their KJs about $75.00 anight instead of the average of $125.00 (average here in Tampa Bay) for those with equipment. Now, I'm not going to say a $75.00 KJ on your equipment is going to care half as much as someone working on their own equipment, but I also won't say that all $75.00 KJs are bad KJs.

Oh, and even if you want to hire a new KJ, remember that EVERYONE on this board was new at one point. Personally, it took me about 3-4 months of growing pains before I was good at the job (technically proficient...I think the personality has to be there in the first place), so as long as your business can stomach that, I'd say that doesn't matter either. If your son was a DJ, he will probably pick up the technical side of things pretty quickly, and as long as he is level-headed (i.e., not short tempered with drunks...KJ is about 1/4 a babysitting job) and personable, he'll do fine. If he lacks in any of those areas, however, he is going to struggle keeping the patrons.

THE BOTTOM LINE is that your venture to get your own equipment and in-house KJ is very much like any DO-IT-YOURSELF project at home - Will you save money? Yes. Will you save time and effort? No. Will you be able to do the job of a professional with the same quality? Probably not, but maybe after some practice!!

As for a system, I could put together a complete small/medium venue karaoke PA of quality components that you won't need to upgrade for quite a while for about $2,500 (minus the computer). I could then get you a good starter library of music from oldies to today for about $1,500 (hell, my first library cost me about $380.00...it did kinda suck, but I got by with it until I could afford more!!).

What you would need to do would be to rip all of the music into your computer (which is going to take a LONGGGG time) and make your own song books in MS Excel (which is going to take a LONGGGGG time), but you could always run on the discs until you finish ripping the library into the computer. Let me know if you want to see what this budget will get you!!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

And my experience is from ACTUALLY running a profitable food service business (coffee shop) for ten years, so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. ($250,000 a year when I started, over $1,000,000 a year when I left).

Actually, when you talk about who's proven what, you haven't taken into account monthly recurring expenses associated with this endevour, OR the additional TIME and Labor associated with this, but your balance sheet at the end of the month will quickly remind you:

1) Cost of the host... Shep is going to have to still pay someone to run this thing
2) Depreciation of equipment
3) Interest on the loan ( or lack of interest due to cash outlay)
4) Payroll taxes
5) INSURANCE
6) Miscellanous expenses

Who are you paying to rip disks?

Who are you paying to print and put together song books?? (expensive!)

Who are you paying to make up song slips?

There is a serious amount of non-show labor that we KJs invest, and expenses we incurr for running our business, now Shep is going to be taking that on with everything else associated with running his bar?? No thank you.

I don't know what Shep pulls down in a year, but for a small business ($250,000 - 1,000,000 gross a year) a $10k expense is a major expense! As a small business owner I'd really have to ask myself is this really the best use of this money right now?... on what is a relatively risky proposition (will this bar support karaoke 2 or 3 times a week?).

For you KJs out there who think the business owner would be better off getting their own equipment, you need to reevaluate. You provide one heck of a service for a bar owner, and are worth every dime if you're doing it right!

_________________
Good music, good friends, howling good times!