Karaoke Forums

Watching the way the poll has gone over the last few days, I wonder how many zero-post new users we have who have recently registered and voted?

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Don't know, wish it would show who voted & for what like some other forums. But obviously not one person to date that has voted thinks it's a significant problem.

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I had voted "significant problem" and posted on the first day but it evidently didn't go through as that is when we lost our satellite reception. I think I said something to the effect that we, in fact, were probably going to lose our show as we weren't bringing in enough money, even though we had increased the body count. As the suspicion is that some of the newly out of work regulars were either being comped or trying to make 2 beers last all night, there wasn't much we could do about it but find a new venue. So for us, in a small venue in a small town with a large number of people not so much freeloading but spending as little as possible, it was making a difference. But in other shows that we have attended, a few people not spending didn't seem to make much of a difference and some brought in money just from their presence. I have already mentioned our water drinking friend who has the men buying her drinks in no time. Others might be the designated driver whom the MANAGEMENT choses to comp sodas.

I haven't encountered any cults of people dedicated to going to karaoke en masse without spending any money but I hear they may exist elsewhere.

I'm not the biggest karaoke socializer, but I can't think of anyone I know that doesn't buy at least one drink at any place I've ever been to. It's either a beer, pop, a shot, or juice. Sometimes I only by 1 beer and plan on staying just for a couple rotations. I've had cases where the kj wanted me to stay anyhow, even though I'd finished my beer and was on my way out. I don't think it was because I am a great singer (au contraire!) but because it was a light evening and they hated to lose even someone who wasn't a big drinker.

The one case I can think of where someone ordered water was with a group of people who always sat at a table and always ordered drinks. One of them decided to order water for some reason and the bar decided to charge for it. The whole group (who had always been a steady source of business) go up and left....NEVER TO RETURN! Yep, the bar lost a lot of money on that one.

The other bad karaoke misjudgement I saw more recently was a couple guys I knew from another show who dropped in on a bar I was at. The one guy bought shots for several of the people he knew in the bar including me. In fact by the end of the night I had had two additional shots to what I would normally have had all out of this person's generosity. The kj didn't like the song the one guy put in, though, and thoroughly trashed it. I had heard this guy sing the same song at other places quite well, and this night it sounded so bad it was a long, embarrassing 4 minutes, at least for me. I'm thinking, "This guy just bought drinks for the bar, and what the.....?????!" No need to be concerened about freeloaders if the existing customer base is getting the shaft.

People love to twist words or thoughts to fit their own agenda(s) and it is so prevalent on this forum when it comes to freeloaders. And I know why, but that is a discussion to be saved for a rainy day.

1) Lonman suggested there was an implication on my part that the same people posting today had a different opinion two years ago. I never suggested that in anyway, shape or form. What I presented was designed to DRAMATICALLY display how many people derided management's decision back then. And IMHO, I believe if the same thread were started to day, it would generate the same response from the majority on this forum as back then. Why do I say that? Because the same excuses crop up in current discussions as appeared in that two-year old post regarding freeloaders! In fact a poster back then explained how some freeloaders were of help to him just as someone made the same comment currently!

2) It was implied that I was being deceptive by leaving out the names of some posters. Well, I left out the names of the original posters, for the most part, so that NOBODY would think I was trying to embarrass them or play "gotcha" - a common game herein I intentionally wanted to avoid.

3) I made the point in this thread about the effect of freeloaders on singers, Lonman
declared how he doesn't pay attention to such matters. There are people who in life miss a lot of what's going on around them. Just because you, Lonman, don't pay attention doesn't mean that everyone else is the same as you. And a post from two years back explained why a KJ had to deal with a freeloader who was becoming a problem to the servers and the singers. Note: it was clear that both groups went to the KJ to solve the problem, even the servers!

4) And I think that Topher handled the problem quite well and in a way that was the best for HIS SHOW!

5) Quote of Eric's from the OP of two years ago:
I can't defend how this free-standing quote appears. However, I have never believed that everyone in a group of people need to spend. In my diatribes I have SPECIFICALLY targeted the freeloading loner who shows up week in and week out just to sing, not to spend!!!

The quote is out of context from the many posts I have made is this regard over the years! And what I have always maintained, though it may not have been obvious from the preceding quote is that when this discussions comes up there is a cadre of people who defend freeloaders by making one or several of the following assumptions about them:

a) perhaps the freeloader came with a group?
b) perhaps the freeloader is the DD?
c) perhaps there is nothing to purchase but alcohol and the "freeloader" is a recovering alcoholic?
d) perhaps the freeloaders is a diabetic?
e) perhaps the freeloader is very entertaining and attracts other customers

My comment in the quote above about the freeloader being a part of a group followed my thinking that everyone rushes to defend the freeloader with the speculation that he/she is part of a group, which is not necessarily so. If it is so, I have no problem with it

And in my current post explaining how freeloaders go undetected by management I specifically suggested that they seat themselves amongst groups of spenders/diners making it appear that they are part of the group. And I never suggested that the servers should be faulted for making the assumption that said freeloaders are part of the group. And because of that assumption, freeloaders can "fly under the radar",
AND THEY DO!

Now to the SILLY POLL:

Again, I don't know what benefit anyone has derived from it. I certainly can't see any!!!

For example, we do know AS A FACT that 30% of the respondents have indicated that they have 1-2 freeloaders on a "regular basis"

So.. let me see? Could it be that there are actually a few more than the 1-2 that said respondents aren't aware of? Could there actually be 3-5 from time to time?

Of course, I am greatly confused because many of the posters indicated that they don't pay attention to such matters and would have no way of knowing about such matters without demanding some sort of receipt from singers before they sing? So how can they provided any response whatsoever to the POLL?

BUT most significantly contributing to my skepticism is this:
There were but 3 categories of responses
a) problem (3%)
b) no problem (66%)
c) freeloaders come regularly (30%)

And one category [(c) above] offered no opportunity to opine about the problems caused by freeloaders. WHAT KIND OF POLL IS THAT? SILLY, AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING!

It seems you haven't missed any opportunity to opine as much as you like!

Everyone else has the same opportunity. They just don't have a problem to opine about.

I have a couple of borderline freeloaders at one of my weekly gigs. They however are also my ringers and can be counted on to start the ball rolling and sing a song or two at the beginning of the night if it;s slow and everyone is just staring at me. They always drink water/soda...until last Friday I actually saw them order some food! WOOHOO!

No since you just put the quotes down without anyones name - it does make a difference on opinion from 2 years ago to the people actually discussing THIS topic TODAY!


Which is why I posted the link that you did not. You going to quote someone, quote it entirely!


Never once did I say I do not pay attention to them, as a matter of fact I said I know we get some - I said I do not consider them a problem in any way shape or form that you do. But I also said I am not going to make it a point to go out in the audience & figure out if someone is drinking/spending or not - THAT is NOT MY JOB! I am hired to entertain. I am not an employee of the bar itself just contracted help.


Hooray someone thought like you for a moment.


Out of the 17 years i've been running karaoke - 7 nights a week & no not always in my club, I have never once experienced a one loner non-spender ever come into a show that didn't eventually make friends with the groups that were in there. However if I did, it still would not be my place to tell them anything, it would be managements.

I see this all the time! No big deal!
I see this often as well, again no big deal!
Then this is where the bar should step in if they are truly a loner freeloader & not even purchasing sodas.
Diabetics I have seen drinking, but they could still buy water - but the bar has to be smart enough to charge for the water, if not bad on the bar.
This I have seen as well & yess sometimes the spending crowd will stay longer than they anticipated because of a great singer. Who cares if this one person is not spending? Management doesn't, they are making money on the other tables.


Then these groups need to tell this loner they don't want him at their table. Flat out! But if the group allows this person to join, then I see it as no problem - if managment doesn't know about the problem, MAKE THEM AWARE! So they can maybe do something about it, maybe kick them out of the club. But going into Seattles observation, kicking out one lone freeloader can also lose a large group of spenders!

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Well this confuses me as well. How are you so well trained that you can immediately spot a non-spending freeloader, know exactly where they sit - trying to sit with groups uninvited, knowing this person is not with this group in any way shape or form, but just is trying to fly under the radar? Aren't you doing a show? Or is this while you are a singer - either way, if i'm doing a show, I find it would be impossible to know who is spending what & as a singer, I flat out would not care if someone is spending or not so would not scrutinize every table the way you make it seem you do.

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To Eric it's a silly poll because it virtually destroys his "Sky is falling" routine. It appears that the only person who voted that it is a significant problem was Leopard Lizard (correct me if I'm wrong) and that ppears because a suddenly large unemployment problem (due to the current economic downturn) and not that the people are cheap. For everyone else it doesn't appear to be a problem either for the show or the bottom line of the bars.

And Eric you cannot control massive layoffs.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Tonight I will have a fellow KJ at my show. She is GOOD very good. She might only buy cokes. I will introduce her to the owners and they will probably not charge her. My job is entertainment and filling the till.

If you have venues that depends upon your singers spending or contributing to the till then I suggest updating your system or changing your show format. Again I will repeat myself. Give me a detailed description of your venue and I will save it.. As of now all you are is a broken record that repeats itself over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over..

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Clearly there are people who want to argue over a non-argument.

Why is it a non argument? Because it was as I singer that I first observed the facts that I have shared with the forum and it was as a businessman I saw what the freeloaders can do to the shows that they attend. Again, facts are facts! However, if you want to call me a liar go right ahead

FACT 1: I have seen freeloaders and how they "work"
FACT 2: I have seen 5 freeloaders show up at shows with 10-15 singers
FACT 3: Such shows usually don't last very long if the group of freeloaders begin attending such a show at its inception
FACT 4: Management doesn't recognize that there is a problem with freeloaders, particularly in restaurants (where you would think that freeloaders would be most easily identifiable)
FACT 5: If management decides there isn't enough money coming in they're likely to cancel the show and do so without looking for reasons why the revenues doesn't seem to match up with the size of the audience IT DOESN'T MATTER AT THAT POINT!

In many of my previous posts I have referred to the "excuses" many posters commonly make to diminish the problem of freeloading singers and/or justify their existence. In Lonman's last post, a new excuse was provided:



Well, Lonman, I guess that you concur that there is such a thing as a freeloading loner? But how would you know? Did you ask him for a receipt for his purchases? And is/was that loner a regular? I must assume he was a regular at karaoke based upon your post! So, we've gone from you're not being able to identify a freeloader to the acknowledging in your last post that you have been aware of a freeloaders. And in your last post you diminished the problem of the freeloading loner by stating that the loner made friends. So, he went from a freeloading loaner to just being a freeloader?

And how long did it take for the freeloader to make friends? Actually, who cares? Because the reality is that freeloaders in my areas have proven that they are savvy enough to socialize with others. Their socializing, however, doesn't diminish the freeloader's end-game: To avoid spending money.

In fact, as a reminder, the 5 or so freeloaders I have referred to know each other and everyone at the shows where they meet up. What difference does that make?

It seems to me that most every KJ posting in this regard fears confronting the freeloader. My complete insight as to why I believe that is the case will be saved for another thread. But what follows is the evidence that supports my belief that most KJ's need to diminish what I have posted so as not to acknowledge that a KJ personally dealing with freeloaders may be the only solution a KJ has:



-Lonman and others have been adamant that they wouldn't know who is freeloading, while I know for a fact that it is not a difficult thing to do if you're dealing with freeloading regulars. I have NEVER suggested that a KJ must be so astute to pick out an unknown loner, who hasn't spent any money, to be a freeloading. And I have never suggested that someone doing a show in a large venue with 25 or more singers needs to be concerned with freeloaders.

On the other hand, you'd have to be on "something" not to notice 5 or so freeloaders regularly attending a show with a rotation of 10-15 singers and a total audience of 25-30, sitting no further than twenty (25) feet away from you (assuming you never move any closer to the audience). Eventually you would notice that someone never has anything in front of them or that someone has NEVER asked you once to skip their turn in the rotation, temporarily, and to get back to them in a bit because their dinner had just been served.

-And considering that most posters say they haven't had to deal with freeloaders, I find it amazing that those very same people know so many reasons why freeloaders are justified in not drinking. And while people have suggested all sorts of reasons why someone may not be drinking, they ignore that fact that those reasons don't explain why freeloaders aren't spending money in a restaurant or in a venue where there are other purchases that can be made aside from alcohol!

-And in the absence of any experience with freeloaders, people ignore my experience, including the fact that the freeloaders I have discussed are regulars, attending a restaurant venue, who blend into the paying crowd by seating themselves amongst those who are spending while they (the freeloaders) spend nothing or virtually nothing week in and week out. With that I make three points...(1) there is no reason that anybody can find to justify not spending money in a restaurant...(2) restaurants don't tolerate non-spenders (unless they freeloaders are smart at duping the management about their spending habits) (3) there is no reason in a restaurant atmosphere why you won't eventually notice people who don't regularly spend so long as the crowd and the place aren't huge!

-Without any experience with freeloaders, there are posters who are adamant about leaving them to management to handle and who will assure you that management MUST be aware of said freeloaders. Taking that assumption one step further, it has been concluded by some that management obviously doesn't care about freeloaders, or they'd be gone. Some of the same posters, furthermore, have provided unrealistic explanations why management might ignore the freeloader, including the belief that the venue can somehow benefit from losing money!

To repeat myself regarding the point about management's awareness I can assure you that management doesn't always know, and if the servers are tipped well by those at a table, they couldn't care less if someone didn't spend anything! And, again, how would a server truly know if the freeloader seated alongside me is actually with me or by himself? I'm spending money and tipping well every week, who is going to take the chance of insulting me by asking me who the party is that is seated beside me?

And, to repeat myself in one other regard, there is confusion amongst the general public about income tax "loses" that they know nothing about, which do not apply to a bar or restaurant business, specifically speaking.

Just reminds me of a Conspiracy Theorist. Everyone but him is wrong. Has anyone here said there are no freeloaders? I think not. The vast majority here agree that it is the management's responsibility to deal with them not the host. And that Eric is what you can't seem to get through your skull. As a host, unless you own the venue, have no authority to deal with non-spenders. You can do what most here have said, if you notice one, let management know and let them deal with it. Simple, no?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

But obviously "problem" votes are filtering in one at a time, changing the percentage little by little. I wonder who is just happening to bop in at this late date and vote overwhelmingly toward a problem. Hmm?

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

What I can say is this:
As a venue owner (I've been one), dealing with entertainment and customers alike, the day an entertainer, "dealt with" a "freeloader" in my venue, without asking me first ,would be his last day at my venue.
The way I saw it then and the way I see it now is that you run your business (entertaining) and I run mine (runing my venue). Don't EVER overstep your bounds and presume to ask people to leave my venue , or refuse to allow them to sing if it's karaoke just because you think they're freeloading.
If it ever happened (it never did), the "entertainer" would be handed their walking papers at the end of the night, never to return.




You think?

This thread is going absolutely nowhere. I had a complete response all written out, but WHY? No point anymore. You see it as a problem, majority of others do not. You say management doesn't know, if they don't make them aware but they'd have to be pretty stupid to not see the problem that you indicate there is.
I'm done!

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Let me try to describe a scenario where management might not mind some freeloaders at their venue. A group of people show up at a karaoke bar looking for a good time but they walk in the front door and the place seems like a ghost town so they turn around and go to a different karaoke bar hoping to find a place with some people in it. They get to their second choice and the bar is pretty crowded with a bunch of freeloaders that are singing up a storm and having a blast. They decide to stay because the freeloaders have created an air of fun in the bar that would otherwise be just like the first bar that they walked out of. The bar NOW has some SPENDERS because the freeloaders made the bar look like it was a fun place to be at instead of a ghost town. Bottom line is that warm bodies will attract more warm bodies.

Freeloaders don't cost a bar anything until the bar is so busy that the freeloaders are taking up seats of potential spenders and those spenders are inconvenienced to the point where they go somewhere else.

I think that Eric's personality would cost the venue more customers than the freeloaders ever will. Maybe the only people willing to put up with Eric, are the ones that figure...."what do you expect for a free night of entertainment?" People that spend MONEY expect more for their money than a Fender Passport sound system?

Bingo. Which is why "waiting for more singers until we start" is counterproductive. What is the incentive to show up early if you might have to cool your heels spending money for listening to DJ music you could care less about?

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I get the impression that the "spirit" of the topic got lost somewhere , mixed up in all the personalities. "freeloaders" as been called should only be a concern to a KJ if he/she starts to see the "freeloader" effect the quality of the show. And only at that point they should "mention" to management for their disposition. If MGT doesn't mind the KJ should'nt mind. It's that simple.

Now if MGT is complaining to the KJ that the show is bringing in freeloaders PROBLEM or maybe the BARTENDER is complaining on not getting enough in TIPS from the so called FREELOADERS... PROBLEM.

There are hundreds of reasons why someone might be at karaoke night not spending money . AGAIN ...If mgt doesn't mind ....I don't care either

But seriously........ Are there really owners/managers that want or approve of someone sitting in the bar all night not spending money ?????? (excluding any special circumstances ).