Karaoke Forums

Can anyone point me in the direction of print versions of legislation/laws that speak to the legality of recording karaoke to sell. My biz partner and I have discerned a lot of general interest from all types of singers to have their karaoke performances recorded on CD for their personal use...(listening in the car, getting in their girlfriend's pants, whatever) and my profit. I want to use that term 'profit' loosely, since I already bought a recording software years ago, and CDR's aren't that expensive....

To be completely honest, test runs of our recordings have resulted in pretty good quality, and we are very impressed with this 'new aspect of the biz'. In as much as we strive to do the right thing (acquire music legally, pay taxes on gigs that pay us cash, etc.) we want to try and do the right thing here, too. (I posted a video on Youtube recently, of a girl singing 'Kiss' by Prince, and it was abruptly pulled by Universal, and I received a nice little email from them saying that if I ever did that again, I might be in danger of losing my weiner, or worse, go to jail)

Also, if this is, in fact, LEGAL for us to do, can I get some suggestions on how to charge my singers? (Side Note: I was out in Vegas years ago, and at the Imperial Palace, they used to video record you, and give you a CD with 3 songs for $15.00.) Bar Stars Karaoke is no LV, but we were thinking 2-3 songs for 5$ on a CD-R would be fairly reasonable....any thoughts??

So, If anyone could point me in the right direction of a correct and LEGAL answer here, that would be much appreciated. THANKS!

Not legal. Especially if you 'profit' from it, makes it even moreso.
Only way to be able to do so would be to obtain permission from the copyright holder by either contacting them or their representative & there also may be a fee involved as well. For manus i've been told it can cost as much as $5000 per song to obtain the rights to a song. I do not believe it is that much for personal use.

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Its not legal...... for profit! I also record all my singers but do not sell or make cd's for them. They can go to my site and listen to themselves as many times as they want. Hell, I've even put applause at the end of their performances. Talk about going the extra mile!!!

As Lonman correctly says---not legal without licenses , both mechanical(to duplicate the music) and sychronization (to add the words video as you would be reproducing not only a song but a video production). You may also have to get mastering liscense permission also.

In any event you would have to chase down the original owner/writer or lable that controls/owns the actual rights to a particular song's copyright which would be costly and time-consuming.

Havnet actually approached a record label to do this, but have been toying with the idea of inquireing on on certain blues songs to recreate them as karaoke tracs. But I imagine it would be prohibitively expensive for a hobby.


But as I understand it Free Use covers you for one copy for HOME PERSONAL USE ONLY. Not for reproduction in a COMMERCIAL BUSINESS MONEY MAKING context.

So in a commercial context it would be copyright violation.

For personal home use only it should be ok.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Not only would you have to obtain permission from the copyright holders (writers) of the music, you would also have to get permission from the karaoke disc manufacturer (ie, whoever created the backing track).

Beg to differ....

What the OP is proposing to do seems perfectly legal to me and is covered under the "Fair Use" doctrine. He's not charging for a recording of the song, he's charging for the act of recording. The music is incidental. The purpose of the recording is to identify faults and flaws in singing technique. Only one recording is made and the master recording (such as it is) is then deleted. Doing anything else with the recording such as reproducing it or posting it on a web site would be subject to licensing.

As for an exact, hard and fast, can't possibly get in throuble, sort of legal answer....
You'll have to move to another country. The courts in the U.S. make up the law as they go along and as the mood strikes them. The legal system serves only the legal system.

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Okay, who took my pants?

since there is no case law, the legality or illegality is up for inturpetation. That said, the the courts are fairly liberal when it come to "Fair Use".

If 2 live crew can perform a parody of a song in CONCERT and publish and not pay a dime, and is backed by the courts as "fair use" than I would submit that charging to record a PERSONAL demo for someone for their own use is fineas well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_v ... Music,_Inc.

If you were to record the person and then try to make money off the recording... or the person recording did so, THEN THAT would violate copyright.

What we are talking about here is completely different. The person is charging for the use of their equipment and expertise in recording... which is a SERVICE CHARGE, not the recording themselves.

The recordings made are for personal use, and not for profit, which I can make for myself all day long.

The judge's terim "Not put manacles on science" is far reaching, especially as it pertains to karaoke. Which is why, as long as you buy your discs and transfer them to you computer, nothing will be said, and I find myself chuckling at any KJH or disc manufacutre that tries to imply otherwise.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Regardless of what you want to call the money - service charge for the use of the equipment, just charging for the blank disc, system rental fee, etc.., it's being done in a commercial setting & the kj is making money - profit! No there may not be any specific case law, but that doesn't make it legal.
If the singer brings in their own cdg, that might fall into the fair use catagory since they have their own tracks & the kj is not supplying them a track out of their selection.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Badda bing! I agree that the person should provide their own music... but recording them singing it and charging them a fee for doing so is more than legal. Lonman, I've read a lot of your posts, and your technical knowledge and willingness to share is wonderful. The law is this area is very gray.

Whether someone is making money with copy righted material has NOTHING to do with it. The 2 live crew case that I referenced proves that.

that said, I think if you're gonna set up to do this, it should be a give away. Discs are cheap.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

This is the basic structure of laws or obligations pertaining to us. You can agree or disagree however I am not debating I am merely giving my interpretation of the laws after many exhaustive hours of googling.

A single reproduction of any copyrighted material does not require a mechanical or sync license. There is nothing illegal involved. A recording studio or we do not have to procure or pay for licenses unless under a contractual agreement . In essence all we did was provide the system and knowhow and not in any way obligated for obtaining licenses or paying fees. At this point the recording does not even exist to anybody concerned.

However if the singer (artist) makes copies and distributes in a public format whether for monetary gain or not, the artist must obtain and pay for the proper licenses. We were not under contract and no evidence shows that we even tracked, mixed or mastered the final product. In other words the responsibility is burdened to the distributor and as such we are not engaged in or benefiting in the process.

This has not been tested in a court of law for karaoke but I strongly suspect this would be the way that it would go down.

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The fair use law dictates that a person can take another person's copyrighted material and significantly alter so it does not resemble the original work then it's OK to use. In case of video and audio, you can only use parts of the song, like the rapper using samples. However, if you use the entire song as is, then it does not fall under fair use doctrine.

If you are an individual using your own equipment at home to do this, although you may still be breaking the law, you can probably get away with this. If you are a business entity, breaking the law, whether you claim to have not making money off the event, is still illegal and can be prosecuted for it.

Bottom line is this use does not fall under fair use and legally, you can not even give the disc away for free and meet the DMCA law.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Here are a couple of passage from Wikipedia regarding copyright.

"Several important rights under United States copyright law exist only for “copies” of works—material objects in which the work is embodied. Section 106(1) prohibits the reproduction only of copies of works, and section 106(3) prohibits the distribution only of copies of works."

"There are five basic rights protected by copyright, sometimes called the five "pillars" of copyright. The owner of copyright has the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

* To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
* To prepare derivative works based upon the work;
* To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
* To publicly perform the work, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, and sound recordings by means of digital audio transmission;
* To publicly display the work, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work.

A violation of any of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder is said to be a copyright infringement."

To me this clearly states that copying the music to a CD, along with the addition of singer's vocal still violates the copyright law.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

So I mulled over the same question several months ago. I figure that I would be acting like kinko's computer terminal rental. They rent the equipment, during which time they purchase the song (downloaded legally from SBI, tricerasoft etc if available) and then burn it to a blank cd (which I sell to them). I may assist them in the process of using the equipment. The money I make is for the selling of a blank CD and for the use of the equipment. The rental contract can (much like kinko's) prohibit illegal use and the person can sign to accept that responsibility. Burning the track to a CD constitutes fair use for the consumer, they have purchased the song themselves, the blank cd and rented the equipment.

I haven't got round to doing this yet though!

- J

Are you prepared to place the LIABILITY for any kind of potential violations on to the ownership of this karaoke venue(bar)? As anything that goes on within their premesis is now their responsibility and liability as they in effect would be granting consent to allow this practice to take place.

Have you made clear the potential legal liabilities clearly and in full detail to the owners there???

Are they willing to assume such liablity and with full knowledge allow it to take place??

Better make VERY SURE OF IT.

If some sort of lawsuit or action were occur---they then are a DIRECT part of it---since they would be making money OFF THE "SERVICE" you would be "PROVIDING" occuring within THIER PREMESIS.

Better think it through and be very clear as to whom you are dragging into it and involving.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Public performance relates to the original artist etc which is covered by ASCAP and ...

Recording from a CDG only pertains to the CDG producer if indeed they did copyright it and has nothing to do with the original artist or writer. Those fees were supposedly paid by Sound Choice or whoever and we are not responsible for those fees and anybody that tells you this has rocks in his head.

There is not a federal agency that will spend months of investigation and spend thousands of dollars in man hours to bust a karaoke host for a few recordings even if it was a flagrant violation of copyright laws.

Have any of you had to work with or got busted by the FBI, FCC or OSHA? I have been cited by at least two of them in a professional status and I know how they operate. Believe me they are not going to be going into bars like cowboys and busting people on suspicion. Get out of your fantasy land.

There is not a copyright revision that even addresses anything concerning karaoke. Other countries have attempted to and their laws are still vague. It is not a simple matter and saying something is illegal does make it so or prove anything.

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Let's put it in the same scenario. If you go rent the computer, download a copyrighted picture, let's say Ansel Adams' picture of the Yosemite. You put your name on it, burn it to the CD and sell it to others as just a cost to burn the disc. Do you think that is legal? Do you believe that estate of Ansel Adams will let you sell those discs to others without having to pay them royalty just because you put your name on it? Does that constitute fair use? I don't think so.

Same way let's say someone take a picture of your family from the web, alter them to look like they are foolish and publish it as fair use to sell those pictures to other people. How would you feel about that? Don't even think about the copyright. Do you think people have right to take others' work and alter them and sell those pictures makes it right?

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Yes! Let's say you are a songwriter and one day you go into a bar, and hear someone butchering YOUR BABY! The song YOU WROTE and poured your heart into! How would you feel about that! Do you think just because people have the ability to take others work and alter the words, phrasing and pitch and then perform those songs, that makes it right?

Wait....um...nevermind.

If you pay the publishing company or songwriter or photographer or poet or artist and legally obtain the liscenses and rights to use the piece or music, poetry or photo, or art or written piece then YES it is RIGHT---as the owner, was compensated, paid and granted permission and liscense to use the item and reproduce the item. IF you didnt pay, obtain permission/liscences then its not right(or legal).

For example the recent piece of election artwork of President Obama that appears everywhere. There is a copyright lawsuit pending for unathorized usage.

So will FBI, COPS, CIA, SWAT etc etc come barging in, slam down the doors of your bar and raid the place. Or someone actually file a lawsuit against u AND your bar? Most likely not. But doesnt change the fact that you are making unathorized reproductions/duplications and violating copyright laws in A COMMERCIAL SETTING.

If it did happen they would most likely take the bar to court. Maybe even get it shutdown. At the mimimum get a cease and desist letter from the original artist/company/label adressed to and citing the bar.


But again are YOU WILLING to place that kind of liablity upon the BAR OWNER???


My suggestion to you to avoid ALL OF THIS is to offer to let the custy search for the song they like on your terminal, at the bar, ORDER the CD for the custy over a legit karaoke website like www.karaoke.com or similiar, let them pay on-line over your machine on THIER credit card and have it shipped direct to thier home.

No need for YOU or the BAR to be involved in any unathorized reproductions or duplications, yet you are still providing a value-added service(which I believe is the ACTUAL ORIGINAL INTENT--to offer a service that none of your competitors offer). Now THAT you could charge them for with no repercussions for anyone! You would be then offering a KARAOKE ORDERING SERVICE for them.

Then if they want to record themselves, they can get a karaoke machine and do it themselves(which you could help them order and charge a bit more for that help and service---you could call it a "KARAOKE CONSULTING SERVICE" ---maybe even charge a fee to go to there homes and help set up thier karaoke machine and show them how to use their new gear, offer and charge for "KARAOKE TRAINING" and show them how to record something ON THIER OWN! Offer it as "A COMPLETE KARAOKE CONSULT AND TRAINING SERVICE"!! A win-win for all--u offer a NEW AND UNIQUE SERVICE, custy gets what they are after at a fair price and the bar benefits from now having new custys come and see and get the service for themselves while selling them a drink on thier visit.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Actually, Lonman, the existence of, or non-existence of specific case law is exactly what defines what is legal and what is not, barring a clear law specifically prohibiting it. Case law establishes precedent. If there is no specific law prohibiting it, and no case law establishing a precedent prohibiting it or establishing it as illegal, then it is not.

birdofsong

That's pretty much the essence of what I was saying.

begin hypothesis....

The customer makes the legal purchase of the song from a legal download site. The customer rents the equipment to record their voice and burn it to the cd, jumpdrive, whatever. I provide the 'consulting service' as you describe. I sell them an empty jump drive or blank cd which they may choose to use on the equipment they have rented.

Perhaps one way to do this would be to have a separate laptop or one of those nice recording cdg disc players, especially the one with 2 sd card slots, one for playing, one for recording.

end hypothesis.

I'm not talking about someone copying a song from MY library, as that would be an illegal duplication.

Yeah I know this war of words will never end with someone still claiming what I propose would be illegal but there you go.

Jonn