Karaoke Forums

Correct.


Symetrix unfortunately is a brand not many use - not because they aren't good, they are a high end product, just aren't as readily available and more geared for pro broadcasting & other types of systems rather than general PA use - but some of the equipment, like the Voice Processor, can be used nicely in PA & studio. I run 2 Symetrix 501 compressor/limiters on my vocal mics & these I would put over even the dbx 160A as far as sound quality. But these have been discontinued years ago & can only be purchased used - if you can find them.

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I think spending 500$ per channel for compression is probably overkill for this application you're right about that. I can't really see myself "experimenting" with products in that price range. Regardless the manual is a good read (for audio geeks). Regular folks could of course use it as a good sleep aid.

I know Lonman gave you a yes, but I figured a little more explanation might help you down the road. The "Insert I/O" jacks on your channel strips are a 1/4" TRS connector with a send and return on the signal conductors, plus a ground. When you hook up a compressor or other device to that jack, you are basically tapping into the channel strip signal, doing something to it, and then putting the altered signal back into the channel strip. So you can still do anything else you want to it -- it does not prevent you from routing the signal to FX, monitors, etc. Also, if you simply unplug the cable from the insert jack then that compressor is no longer in the signal chain.

You will probably want to buy a cable like this http://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSSTP80 which is 4 insert cables neatly organized into a bundle, and put labels on the mixer end so if you lend out your gear or someone else sets it up for you, they know where to plug everything in.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I found this diagram that shows it graphically.

Notice how the insert jack is both a send & return. This is why you can't use a standard (two conductor) 1/4inch cable. The audio is routed to the outboard device, then back in before the fader.

Got it guys. I have discovered the insert TRS to TS + TS, Y-cable adapter thingy but thanks for the explanation.

Next question. Would it be feasible to use a dbx 286A as the first device in my chain connecting it's output to a line input of a mixer. The reason I ask is because I am trying to figure out a way that I can setup my rig using a small rack mount mixer. Something like a 1 or 2U device. I want my setup to be compact but I don't know if it will be possible to get everything I need without using a regular "full size" mixer like the A&H ZED series.

I would like to use a mixer like the Rane MLM 82S or something similar.

I was thinking about having 2 (or 3) dbx 286As feeding the Rane. That's just 3U of total rack space for those devices.

What do you guys think? Is it feasible or would I be better off just using a "full size" mixer?

It would be alot cheaper just getting the Zed by itself. It has decent preamps & effects already built in, just get a decent compressor.
Buying it all separately you are going to be paying approx $1000 + just for 3 mic channels & small mixer & will still need to add effects to it & it's not really set up to properly accept effects so you would again need to run these inline as well & being most effects units today are of a dual nature, you wouldn't necessarily get the same effect on each mic & then if you used 3 mics, you'd need ANOTHER effects processor for the third as well. Don't get me worng, those are nice processors, but really not needed for karaoke.
The ZED 12 channel with effects would be all you needed for the effects & mixer portion. It does have nice pre-amps already built in - yes the 286 would make them sound better, but really not needed. Add a nice compressor/limiter - if running 3 or 4 mics, the dbx 1046 4 channel unit is great.

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That's the thing, the cost is higher to have a smaller less functional mixer. 97% of the time I only use two mics and when I do need more of them they would just be used at my corporate gigs. I would just run the extra mics without dynamics and they wouldn't need effects.

Two dbx 286As are about $420 and the Rane MLM 82S is also $420. The Lexicon MX300 is another $280. That's $1120 for two channels of Mics with dynamics and effects.

Would it be possible to run the outputs of the dbx 286As into the inputs of the Lexicon MX300 and those outputs to the mixer without some adverse impact on the sound?

The ZED-12FX is about $500 add to that a dbx 166XL for about $260 and I would still have two channels of Mics with dynamics and effects plus I would have the EQ section on the ZED. The total there is $760 or if I went with the ZED12FX and the dbx 1046 I would be looking at $1030 for 4 mics all with dynamics and effects.

With the ZED or another mixer with built in effects all the channels have to use the same effect, correct? I guess that's not really that big of a deal for karaoke. Two singers using the same effect.

Yes singers using the same effects on multiple mics at the same time is fine.

If you don't anything that big, look into a smaller mixer.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMMG82CX

Has effects & compression built in. I still am not really understanding why you would want to spend the additional expense of an external preamp mic processor for your limited amount of karaoke & more spoken word type stuff?

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Yeap, same here I have in my home studio a Zed 14 & a Mackie VLZ-Pro 1402 and all I can say, the Mackie looks like a Behringer beside the A&H

I find them hard to find at store level and when you do find, their board don't make the other brands look very good, it's a huge board with the 100mm faders and you can really feel the quality! But to be honest, the REAL quality is inside the board, the sound is simply the best you can find out there

I agree, I really don't see a need of buying a seperate mic preamp when using an A&H Zed series, their mic preamps are amazing and probably superior then the Rane??? I was using a Presonus TUBEPre for my condenser mic because the Mackie had poor preamps but it's not the case with the Zed

You are going to be happier with almost any rack-top mixer with an FX processor and pre-amps than with a 1U/2U line mixer. You'll even end up liking it better for your corporate gigs. If you want to keep the setup time down and not have a bulky console, just use a rack case that has a place for your mixer at the top (if you don't already own one like this) and leave all your cables connected to the devices inside the bottom portion of the rack.

Anytime you start looking at out-board mic pre-amps, you fit into one of two categories: boutique pre-amp user; or overly complex for the job. For recording or professional live sound reinforcement, I don't disagree with the use of out-board pre-amps; but for simple tasks, you would even be happy with Behringer (until it broke.)

You mentioned being limited to one FX processor. There are a number of choices if you want several FX. For example, the ZED 12FX has an on-board FX processor and an additional post-fader send (AUX3) you can use for an out-board FX device. Route the out-board FX processor back into the mix using another channel strip for maximum flexibility.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I hear ya. I once thought about going that way, but I couldn't find a decent 1/2U mixer with an EFX bus. I even bought one of these Samson units cheap:

PL1602


It's a pretty nice unit, but here is the thing. It's a pain in the (@$%&#!) to use when racked. You want to be able to look down at your console and quickly adjust levels when needed. Sure, it was easier to transport, took less space, etc., but IMO rack mixers are much better suited for a set-it-forget-it application. Like a band that does a sound check, sets their levels, and then leaves it.

Barry you hit the nail on the head. I'm afraid that a rack mount mixer will be a pain too. Here is my current rig, Photo Link

It's a Raxxes 10U over 6U pop-top case. There is a Numark PPD9000 mixer on the top, along with the controller for my Numark CDN90. Below, is a power conditioner and the drive tray for the CDN90. Over to the side is of course my MacBook Pro. The CDN90 sees almost no use at all and I plan to remove it from my rig. I have been keeping it in there for backup in case my computer failed but now I just use a pair of iPods for backup.

I went out and measured the interior space on the top of my rack there is no more than 18.25 inches of space on the top. The Allen & Heath is 18.3 inches tall. As much as I want to believe it would fit, it's not going to squeeze into my rack. There is a small chance that it would fit but chances are I would have to buy a new rack to make it work. The Soundcraft boards are not as deep and they would fit into this rack.

My idea with the rack mount mixers was to abandon this rack and get something like this SKB case, Link

It would get my laptop up closer to eye level and 4U below for gear. If that wasn't enough room I can stack it on top of another 4U SKB case. The SKB case is cool because it has a handle that pulls out and wheels on the bottom so you can pull it around like a piece of luggage if you want. It's also rugged and lightweight.

Problem is all the controls for your gear are in front instead of on top like Barry said.

I guess you have powered speakers and such since you did not include a picture of another rack with amps. So your system is pretty portable now, and I am guessing you do not want to sacrifice that by getting a big rolling rack that, when filled up with gear, would be hard to lift into your vehicle without help? You could always use one of the smallish mixers intended to be rack-top mounted and just not put it in a rack I often use a console format mixer and I just put its flight case on top of a rack or table, take the lid off, and plug in the cords.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Here is another shot of my rig showing my speakers and amps.

Photo Link

I use two of the Bose L1 systems with 4 subs. The amps are the bases of the towers and the 4 bass modules are hidden under my table.

I thought about getting one of those big rolling racks and getting rid of the table but I like the way the table hides my subs. Plus with the skirt on the table I am free to just pile up the extra cables under the table along with the bags for most of my Bose gear.

P.S. I usually work alone so lifting stuff into the back of my Honda Element by myself without breaking my back is a huge plus.

Dr.Rhythm:

This might be a little off topic..but do you mind sharing what's the name of the DJ Software/Application that you're using that you have mentioned that it can mixes for you?? I am in the market for a software..and I would like to compare it to VDJ.

Thanks!!

Don't know what the Doc uses, but am really fond of Otsdj.
http://www.otsav.com/
Now compatible with outside midi controllers as well so you can do some manual work as well. Auto mixing where it will actually check each song and will compute the perfect (or as close to) fade in fade out point. Most programs just have a set time stamp that don't work for all songs.
Ots also offers video capability (including karaoke play), has built in dynamics, auto beatmatching. Nice program.

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Currently I am using MegaSeg for my DJ gigs. It doesn't mix for you, but you can setup radio style segues in advance. It doesn't have a ton of bells and whistles but it is ROCK SOLID. I have never had it crash on me and that's the main reason I have not switched to anything else. It's a Mac only application so if your a Windows person, you'll have to look elsewhere. I would second Lonman's recommendation for OTSAV. OTS dosn't have a pretty user interface but it's another solid app.

http://www.megaseg.com/

MegaSeg is not a Karaoke app. It will play music and videos, actually it will play just about anything that the QuickTime player will play. If you had a CD+G style track converted to a QuickTime MOV file it would play that I suppose but it's a Karaoke app so there's no key change or anything like that.

For Karaoke, I use another Mac only app, kJams Pro. kJams is the Karaoke equivalent of iTunes. It has some quirks in it but overall it's pretty solid. It's not even really a full released version as of yet, it's a working beta and the developer has been working on it for some time now. I researched it fully before I took the leap and paid for beta software. It's always worked good for me and I only ever had one problem with it. The one time that I did have a problem, I contacted the developer and we setup a conference call and used a remote desktop style app so I could show him exactly what was going on. He the problem fixed and sent out a new version of the app in less than a week. Great service.

http://karaoke.kjams.com/

Like I said kJams is the iTunes of karaoke players and because of that, there is no headphone cue. That's really the only complaint I have with the software. I have manged to get by without it. When I did my first Karaoke gig, I found that I had a lot to learn about being a KJ. It is quite different than being a DJ. The biggest thing I had to get past was that the guests program the setlist as opposed to me having creative control over the flow of the music.

I'm not sure what to tell you about squeezing a nice mixer into that small rack. I would just buy the rack-top mixer you want, and if it won't fit, replace the rack with a slightly bigger one or just set your mixer on your table and transport it in a flight case to keep it safe.

I don't think there was any discussion of stage wedges for your singers. Are you planning to use expensive stuff like Bose for that as well? I only use the cheapest crap I can get away with (without it sounding terrible) when it comes to stage monitors, because karaoke singers and audience members spill drinks on them, etc. A couple days ago some drunk idiot tripped over one of my wedges trying to pick up the cordless mic he just dropped, and sent it rolling off the stage. Twice. It was like a cartoon, and I kept waiting for the anvil to fall from the sky and land on this guy. It would not have been funny if the wedge was expensive, but it cost $80 so I knew if it was broken I would just buy a new one and tell the guy he can't sing anymore.


If I have a lot of extra time between drinking, talking to customers, queueing songs, adjusting the mix, drinking, etc. I sometimes move the singers around a little so I can get a few rock songs together, or back-to-back singers doing a song by the same original artist. I think it's pretty fun. As long as you don't totally screw people out of getting a chance to sing, only the really picky "I thought it was my turn after Joe" guests will complain, and in my venues, when you get 20 minutes worth of rock music by singers who don't suck, people appreciate the break from Carrie Underwood and crap like that.

Another thing I do to adjust the singer rotation is break up groups of people. Like if I know 4 singers came in together, and they put their names in all at once, they might otherwise sing one after another, and then it could be a long time before anyone from their group gets to sing again. So maybe they get bored and leave. I try to space them out. If there are really a lot of singers (I have had 50 different names before on a Saturday, they don't realize how long that is between songs so they think they are getting skipped) I will look for duets and group songs that have been requested and substitute those for a person's solo request so 2 or more people get a chance to sing at once.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ