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Last year I picked up a Sunday night show at a downtown hotel bar. Because of other commitments, I told the venue that I could not continue to personally do the show, but would put another host in there.

The other host, I first met about 5 years ago as a singer at my show. A couple of years ago he acquired a computer library and started doing a couple of other venues. He's called me his "mentor" and I thought he was a friend. Until...

Well I told the venue I would continue to handle their promotion (table tents, posters, internet listings, etc.) and they would continue to pay me directly. I, in turn, would pay my host. Well this agreement went fine for about 5 months then I learned that my host enlisted this venue to be part of a contest he was promoting with the other venues at which he worked directly. I wasn't happy about that...as this was my account and he should have approached me about it.

Two months ago, the venue called me and said because of the light crowds they were getting that their corporate office (this venue was part of a chain) had decided to pull the plug on their karaoke nights. No problem, I called my host and gave him the bad news. He asked me if he could go back to them directly and offer a cheaper price. I said it appeared to be a corporate decision based on the register ring, not because of the price. But I left the door open with the venue, and we parted on good terms.

Long story short, last week I found out that soon thereafter he made his own deal with the venue and has been doing shows there all this time. WTF?!? I don't know if that was the plan all along to cut me out and it was the venue's idea, or if the host indeed went to the venue and made his own pitch.

My take is if the venue went to him, he should have told them they would have to make arrangements through me. I think ethically that would be the proper course of business. If this guy wasn't a friend, I would have made him sign a standard non-compete that he could not solicit my accounts for 12-18 months.

If he went to the venue, there's no doubt that's some bad karma going on for someone who ostensibly credited me for encouraging him to get into the business. I don't doubt his harddrive of music is not legal, but that's another story.

What's your take?

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[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

Like me, you seem to have a policy of trusting people to be honest. Unfortunately every now and then we get burned. As my hobby turns more and more into a business I will have to add things like non-compete clauses into sub contracts, auditing of KJ rigs to ensure they are only used at the time the were supposed to be etc etc.

The question is, of course did this KJ rip the music directly from YOUR hard drive... check for known glitches on specific songs that would only come from the CDs you had personally ripped. The file creation date might also match. You may be able to bring a civil suit of some kind but it would be a fight for honor more than a fight to recoup losses.

Realistically we just move on and know that we are living justly in an unjust world.


- Jonn

You should expect this. It's a tough world out there and people will stab you in the back for a nickel. There is a lot of competition for gigs and some of these people are just desperate for work and money. Heck, there are people who love doing it so much they'll work for free and that goes for performers too.

You're lucky you made some money off of it for a few months before it went south.
You have to expect people to want to cut out a middle man.

Things are accelerating at a rapid pace these days and what was "the way things are done" before is changing fast. Many bars and restaurants struggle to make a profit and they look for EVERY angle to cut costs and to increase profits.

"Friend" or not, business is business. You should have made him sign the contract regardless of his status as your "friend".
Also, in this business, it should not have surprised you as it did. It happens every day. You should have expected it from a KJ that has his own equipment but runs your gigs for you. The exact reason I won't contract out my gigs to Kjs that have their own gear. I'd sooner hire a host with no equipment and make him use mine.
I would consider it a lesson learned.

Well it sounds like he was going to approach the venue as he did ask you if he could go in to offer a lower price, it sounds as though your response wasn't anything but
well it seems to be a corporate decision, so it shouldn't have been a surprise that he went in.
Kind of messed up that he was still working for you and did that though.

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Lonnie, my venue and the corporation were one in the same. They paid me with corporate checks. The venue hired my company, my company hired this KJ. The KJ had no direct relationship with the venue, just as if my DJ company subcontracted a DJ to appear at an event. The client has contracted ME, not the talent.

Classickaraoke, I don't use a digital library so he didn't get it from me. But as well all know on eBay and Craigslist there is no shortage of bootleg KJ hard drives available for sale.

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[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

Right, but the kj in question specifically asked you if he could go in with a lower price. That right there should have indicated to you what his intentions were - doesn't matter who hired who, all i'm saying is it shouldn't have been THAT big of a surprise to you. Crappy ethics on his part, yes, but if I had a host of mine ask me that question, I know what their intention is. Again, it don't sound you forbid him to go try after he asked - not that that would have necessarily stopped him anyway.

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Well, it smells like dead fish to me.

more than that, why isn't there any discussion about how the VENUE went behind your back.

They had an agreement with you, yet he was doing shows other than you agreed with on other nights.

Then they accepted his lower bid?

The only thing I find you at fault for Dan, is trusting BOTH the venue and this weasel.

but if he didnt have a contract (the kj you employed) and you were taking a cut before paying him...hmmm it doesnt make it right...however I would be now worried that you will be considered too expensive for other venues.
You say he acquired a computerised library...does that mean you doubt it is legit? and if you doubt it, then are you not guilty by association? Well at least until it no longer suited you
Dont get me wrong Dan I am not criticising you...I am simply airing the thoughts that are mulling through my head as I read.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Not fer nothing but you did have the opportunity of potentially keeping the venue by going in with a lower price. Seems like you declined to do that and therefore lost the account. A non-compete would only mean he can't under cut a current contract you're working or actually competing for. Even with that paperwork signed it appears you would have declined to compete for the venue.

If the venue did something underhanded and you have evidence, different story. I have my current venue from a roughly similar situation. I used to work for a guy who had two shows on a Tuesday night. I ran one at Venue A, and he ran the other at Venue B. H quit running Venue B, my normal hang out on Friday nights. When I called them on Friday I asked if they kissed and made up and were having Karaoke. I was told they didn't know, they're looking for the other host who occasionally did the shows and asked if I knew how to contact me. I told them I could do it that night and we could discuss the future.

Long Story short, the guy I worked for was seriously pissed. I don't know what game he was going to play with Venue B but he really ran me through the wringer in email and verbally, telling folks I broke a contract, that I stole his music, that I broke his equipment and that I stole the show from him. I *did* sign a non-compete with him but since there were no damages that could be proven, he did decline the gig, I wasn't competing with him. My attorney called his attorney to see what the score was and they agreed there was no merit to a suit. Now, I am certain some of you can't believe someone would so blatantly "steal" a show but there was no show to be stolen and I sleep well in that knowledge. Had he been fired by the Venue I would never have approached them on it.

I share the gig with a friend now. He has a long time library converted to digital so we use his library, my sound and computer system and we swap off weeks of doing the work.

Now if you're doing all the other location this chain owns and have an agreement with them to provide their entertainment then you're right, this is wrong. If there is only agreements with the local venues for your to provide the service then it might just have been a one off.

In short while I feel for you Dan, if you had right of first refusal it sounds like you used that. If you're willing to let the gig go how long should it float free until someone tries to snap it up? At what point is that no longer your account? If there is no more on the subject than what you told it looks like all the parties involved, including you, acted consistent with legal requirements.

Well fist off, this situation sucks because you consider the guy your friend.

Other than that learn from the experience.

IMHO, we all as KJs/DJs/part time hosters need to learn that we are in the BUSINESS world, not elementary school. Everything is fair out there and you need to CYA!!!!! You can't blame the Venue, of course that are gonna go with the "weasel" becasue he is offereing the same thing at a cheaper price.

Look at it this way, you are gonna fill up your SUV at the gas station on the corner. Price is $2.50/gallon. Across the street is another station selling the same gas at $2.00/gallon. Where you gonna fill up your SUV which is 1/2 a needle from empty and the tank holds 40 gallons?

My take is that business is way off in this hotel chain due to the recession (most reporting down 25-30% average) and maybe even more in downtown Seattle in the winter.

Upper management pulled the plug on unprofitable entertainment, perhaps in all lounges, and the bar manager laid the KJ off.

Your friend approached you about going in independently. You gave a cautious green light. The bar manager took the new figure upstairs and got an OK.

I doubt that there was any kind of conspiracy to cut you out. I imagine they all tried to work with the original deal. But reality set in.

Did I mention that I have an optimistic view of human nature?

This reminds me of the topic of bumping up singers in the rotation for money,and some kj's here thought that it was ok but most didn't.

Now maybe the kj's that thought it was ok to bump singers, will know how it is when a kj gets bumped do to money.

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SERVING THE COMMUNITY SINCE LAST TUESDAY

I'm sorry, I don't see how my response could have be interpreted as such. I already let the KJ know that his pitching his contest to my venue was not acceptable. He did it anyway.

I've come to the conclusion that this was totally my bad for not having the KJ sign a standard host contract with me. Despite the fact that I was paying him directly, he apparently thought it was "his" show and not mine.

Should I continue to develop other venues with other hosts, I'll be more careful...friend or no friend.

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[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

Dan if you told him not to do it, then I misunderstood and that changes the situation.

I didn't see that you gave a firm "Don't do that" to him. That being the case he's clearly in the wrong. Sorry to see that happen.

This was the only thing I could base you didn't really tell him not to approach the venue, but it was probably not a price issue.
But again, he asked, you shouldn't be surprised he did it still.

Live & learn.

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Sorry that happened to you, Dan. Like Lonman says, live and learn. I've been in the position recently of subbing at a place where a very established host has worked for years and years - I was very pleased that he asked us to come in and cover his show; I would have no qualms about having him cover for us anytime, anywhere. I think you have to be very careful about who you allow to work in your behalf, and have a very, very good understanding of the values of the other person.

If this guy was sensing that the show was going to get canceled and he was depending on the income, he probably was expecting you to do more to try to keep it, including offering to do it for less. Of course that would have meant the host would have gotten less...and it seems he is getting less now doing it on his own. Again, that situation of undercutting, just a really bad thing to do. I wonder the value of a non-competey in any case. There are ways to get around them in all probability. He'll probably gain a pretty good reputation for working for cut rates - let him have all those gigs. He'll be gone soon.

Although it is quite possible he is making more money being his own company than he was being paid as a host with someone else getting a cut of what the gig is actually paying. And since he was the host of the venue due to Dan having other commitments, it's not like he is an unknown in the room, not like a new comer.

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