Karaoke Forums

As much as I would like to go for ultra portability. I think Jeff (and others) are right, that I'm not going to be happy with a 1 or 2U mixer. There are just too many sacrifices made in those devices to squeeze them into a small package. I even found out that one 1U mixer I had looked at before, the Ecler SAM 614 is available in the US. I had previously thought it was not for sale in the states. I really like this mixer (of the 1U units I have looked at) but of course there's no inserts and no effects. I had even thought about ignoring that limitation since I do a lot more DJ gigs than Karaoke gigs but then I saw the price of this 1U mixer. $575. I can buy the A&H ZED12FX for less than that and have a lot more options to boot.

The only problem I have now is the size of the A&H. It's just too long to fit into a typical slant top rack case. I searched Marathon, Odyssey, Roadrunner, Raxxes, Gator, SKB, and others. All the slant top cases max out at 10U on top. There are a few cases out there that offer 11U but in order to get that depth on top you have to get one that's 10U tall. I don't want one of those podium style cases.

So the question is do I just get a dedicated flight case for the mixer, set it up on the table and make all the connections every time or do I get a different mixer that will fit in less than 10U?

My choices for mixers are either the Allen & Heath ZED-12FX or the Soundcraft EFX12. The ZED is 18.3 inches deep or 10.45U. The EFX12 is 14.3 inches deep or 8.17U. I may end up making connections to the mixer at each event anyway because I don't know if there will be enough room under the lid of a slant rack style case to leave an XLR cable plugged into the top of either of these mixers and still close the lid. The advantage is that a slant top case can still hold the Power conditioner, the wireless receivers, and dynamics processors in the same box.

Does anyone have an opinion on how the Allen & Heath compares to the Soundcraft? Allen & Heath is under D&M Holdings, Soundcraft is under Harman International, though I suppose that doesn't matter much.

Basically, here is why I don't like the Soundcraft EFX series. Only 2 AUX sends, one to the on-board FX processor and 1 pre/post-selectable for a second off-board effect or a monitor mix.

The A&H mixer you are comparing it to has 4 AUX sends, one of which is used by the on-board FX, one post-fader for an off-board FX, and I think the other two are fixed pre-fader. They might even be pre/post-selectable, I just glanced at the block diagram long enough to see what the FX routing options were.

Between those two, and it pains me greatly to say this, the A&H is better. Oh, I better go to a bar and sing some sad country song to get over this post.

_________________
Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Jeff you are correct. The Soundcraft only has 2 Aux Buses where the A&H has 4. One is dedicated to FX on the EFX leaving one remaining. The ZED has two pre, one post, and one for FX.

Because the ZED offers two Pre Fader Aux sends you can link the stereo channels aux sends for a left right pair on the Aux outputs.

The ZED has a mid sweep on the EQ between 120Hz and 4kHz, the EFX is between 150 and 3.5kHz. Not a big deal but a difference.

The ZED has the switchable 100Hz HPF where the EFX has no HPF

The ZED has PFL indication on the channel strip instead of one LED for all PFL buttons in the master section on the EFX. There is also a PFL LED near the master meters on the ZED.

The ZED has longer faders than the EFX.

The ZED can act as a USB soundcard for your computer and the EFX cannot.

Both mixers sell for about the same price. I know I'm answering my own question here.

I found that Road Ready makes slant rack cases that are 12U/4U, 12U/6U, 12U/8U...

Hey Doc, looking at the gear you already use, you look like a prime candidate for the move up to an Allen & Heath. You don't have to settle for speculations and reading posted spec quotes from web sites, there are several posts already here from people who actually own and use Allen & Heath boards. Just use the search engine, I don't think you will find one negative statement from a person that owns and operates Allen Heaths, well other than perhaps the price. I've used A&H's for years, Micky, Dynomyk, Spotlightjr, Gunghouk and Zonerc do as well as a few others. Ask them their opinions, I'm sure they will be more than happy to fill you in on what their experience with them has been. Good luck.

_________________
Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I picked up one of these and am quite happy with it. Mine has the velcro pop-up top shown and is only 10U/6U, but they have many variations including larger ones with true rack-rail tops.

SKB Mini Gig-Rig


LINK

Thanks. I'm aware of Allen & Heath's reputation. DJs love their mixers. I'm not going to use one of their DJ mixers for reasons I stated earlier in this thread. The ZED is better suited to my needs. I have read the posts here about the A&H mixers and elsewhere online. I think I'll be happy with a ZED. I have done hours of research on this purchase. As evidenced by this terribly long thread. Research is my thing, I guess most people would call it an obsession. I'm hyper-vigilant when it comes to research.

I know I'm a little late to the game but I'd like to share a couple thoughts. First, the Yamaha consoles discussed here are nice boards and the onboard effects units are great. However, one major problem I ran into with them is there isn't a channel mute. There's a ON button (similar to Soundcraft boards) but it doesn't operate like a mute button. Where this shows up is that if you mute a channel, it doesn't mute the EFX send from that channel, so even if I mute the microphone channel, any input received will still go though the EFX processor and out to the main mix. It's a wierd design that Yamaha has acknowledged but as far as I know has not changed.

I would recommend staying away from vertically rack mounted mixers all together. The only possible exception would be a powered unit like the Mackie 808 or similar.

Something else to consider as to the original topic of this thread, is the routing. Someone mentioned using the insert for effects processors as well as dynamic processors (compressors specifically). I would recommend using an aux send for any outboard effects units and also make sure that the aux send you use is post fader. This way if you take down the level on a specific mic channel, the level of signal sent to the effects unit will decrease accordingly. I typically bring my effects back into the board on separate channel rather than the EFX returns. This allows me to use the faders to bring the effects in and out of the mix globally.

I'm not sure how everyone else here uses their effects, but I'm pretty active with mine. I bring delay in at specific spots and take it out when it doesn't belong. I also don't run reverb all the time, there are spots in many songs that call for the vocals to be as dry as a camel fart. So the setup I recommend above is great for this. However, if you're looking for set it and forget it ease, then use either the onboard effects or bring the effects back in through the EFX returns.

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Regarding the Yamaha "ON" switch, maybe you are thinking of an older product or something small and DJ-oriented? It is definitely not true of the Yamaha live mixers I have used, where the "ON" switch affects all pre/post-fader sends and mix buses. I think we must have been using different Soundcraft products too.

The rack-mount mixers he is looking at are like the 10U/12U format that are essentially a miniature console with rack ears.

I like having FX on a channel strip also. One thing I really hate about my rack-top mixer, a Behringer XENYX 2442FX, is that the on-board FX output signal is not available on an output jack and you can't route it anywhere except groups or main mix. So I had a guy ask for some FX on the monitors last week, and I was like sorry, my big console is getting repaired, and this one can't do it. I considered getting out a cable and routing the FX to a group and then patching it back into a channel strip, but I will have the big console back eventually anyway. Or replace it with a GB4.

_________________
Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

What's your "big console" Jeff?

It's just a Behringer SL3242FX, suitable for weekend bands and more than enough inputs for karaoke. I practically stole it from some guy on ebay who had upgraded his church system. I think I'm replacing it with a Soundcraft GB4-32 maybe within a few weeks. I think I'm going to buy it from a local music store instead of a big online dealer, as the Harman/Soundcraft rep told me I can get the same pricing from almost anyone. I would rather buy a $4000 console from the same local music store that 75% of the local musicians shop at, than from Musician's Friend, so the owner will recommend me to bands who need sound reinforcement. I would rather do bands every Friday & Saturday and then do karaoke on other nights.

My hang-up right now is what out-board FX to buy. Harman has a rebate if you buy three Harman products on the same dealer invoice right now, so a couple Lexicon whatevers and a big console ends up being like 10% off. I need more amps, too, though. Decisions, decisions!

_________________
Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

The mixer I'm referring to is the MG16/6FX. Obviously I'm not talking about large format Yamaha consoles like the 4K that work the way you would expect. But the small format analog boards (like the MG series) are where I've personally had to deal with this exact issue in the past. I actually switched to a Mackie CFX partially because of it.

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

OK I know it's bad form to respond to your own post, but out of curiosity I did research the newer versions of the Yamaha small format analog consoles. I compared the block diagram from the MG16/6FX and the MG166CX (the newer model with the compression built in) and sure enough on the CX model they've moved the on-switch ahead of everything except the compressor and channel EQ. They must have received enough complaints about that design "feature".

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I went to my local music store last night and looked at some gear. They didn't have the ZED12FX, he said they have never had it in their inventory. They did have the ZED14 which is the same form factor so I looked it over. It feels solid. The salesman was kinda down on Allen & Heath. He said that he had lots of returns with the A&H mixers because of problems. He said they sound great and they are built solid but a lot of them have come back. He told me that he had to replace one guy's mixer 4 times with new ones.

Now I know that's just one experience and one opinion from one salesman so I take those comments with the grain of salt. For all I know the dealers margins on the A&H products aren't that high so he wasn't to push another brand.

Having said that, he was recommending the Yamaha boards. He said that he has never had any returns on those boards. I thought it wouldn't hurt to take a look at them so I spent some time looking at the different models. It looks to me like if I wanted to get close to the same features as the ZED12FX, I would have to get the MG166CX-USB. 16 Channels instead of 12, has effects and USB. The price on that mixer is about the same as the Allen & Heath. More channels, built-in simple compression but about the same price. The Yamaha is of course larger, it's a full 19 inches wide (so no rack ears to buy if you want to rack it) and it's a bit taller than the Allen & Heath.

What amazed me about the Yamaha's was how lightweight they are. Even the big ones don't weigh that much. My initial reaction to that was that they felt cheap. I know people are using them with success so I guess they are okay even with a lot more plastic.

The salesman also didn't really like the idea of using onboard effects. He prefers outboard effects for reasons similar to what letitrip mentioned.

After looking around for awhile, I started gravitating to the smaller Yamaha boards. Like the MG102c for example or the MG82cx. I think Lonman recommended this board to me earlier in this thread. It was so tiny and portable it was almost like you could slip it into your back pocket and carry it to the gig. Okay, well not that small but certainly small enough to fit in a small shoulder bag. No XLR outs kinda bothers me though. There are a lot of features missing from the smaller boards. I guess the appeal is in part do to my quest for the ultimate in portability.

I read something on another forum the other day about mixers, the comment was made, "Do you want to buy a board that you'll grow out of or one that you'll grow into?" I don't know what is the right answer to that question.

Get one you'll grow into, you can always run a smaller show on a board that's too big, you can't run a bigger show on a board that's too small. Who knows where your business will take you in the future and what your needs will be, so why take a chance on having to go back to the well and get another console later.

I do like the Yamaha boards and aside from the goofy "On" button situation on the older models, I actually do like the onboard effects. One thing that's really nice is that the EFX Unit on the Yamaha does have it's own fader and on/off control (so it's like having another channel).

IMO, you'd be very happy with the MG series.

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Thanks for the input DJ Tony.

FYI: Just received this in my Inbox

dbx 286-A Voice Processor B-Stock Only $169.95 at BSW!

http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=286A-BSTOCK

Yeah the fader on the FX unit(s) in the MG-series is really nice. I sometimes use an MG32/14FX, by the way, and the "ON" switches affect both pre- and post-fader sends in the way you would expect. Maybe they were updated, or only a few models in the series had the quirky design you mention. It would sure irritate me.

As far as defects go, that is the kind of thing that causes online buyers to go to the product page and write a nasty review like, "I HAD TO EXCHANGE THE THING FOUR TIMES, FINALLY MUSICIAN'S FRIEND HAD TO SEND MACGUYVER TO MY SHOW TO BUILD ME A NEW MIXER FROM GUM WRAPPERS AND POPSICLE STICKS. ACME MIXER COMPANY SUCKS!" Products with a lot of returns generally do not have good reviews or stars ratings or whatever. So you can always check that on some of the sites that have customer reviews.

_________________
Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Ok this peaked my interest as it was the first I have heard of any problems, so I put calls into two of my suppliers that sell A&H and the North American distributor. I basically told them what your sales man had told you. My two suppliers laughed and suggested that perhaps your salesman should be in another line of work as between the two of them they had close to thee hundred A&H Zeds in the field with ZERO problems or returns. This was also confirmed by the National Sales Manager of North America that there have been no problems with the Zeds. My own personal experience with A&H has been fantastic, even with many years of road use with my MixWiz 14:4:2 I have not even suffered so much as a scatchy pot or fader.

_________________
Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Yeah I talked with a couple friends that work at GC & they said they have never had a return on any A&H product, Behringer - all the time, Yamaha & Mackie on occasion.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!