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My owner recently complained about nonpaying customers as well and told me straight out that they don't want the nonpaying customer to sing at all. I told them that I have zero ways of knowing exactly who they are and rather than have to have them there all the time breathing over my neck I suggested that they institute a ticket for the night when they purchase therir first drink, including soda for the designated driver. They charge for each soda purchased. It was either that or a cover charge at the door.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

The reality for management, once the problem has been identified, is distinguishing between an isolated incident and the habitual non-spenders; there is a difference!

I would not suggest, as a businessman, that it would be good business for either the KJ or management to single out and confront a non-spending newbie. I am not going to go too much into the reasons why I say that, but a one-time freeloader is not going to have, most likely, a long term impact.

Consider an experience I had last month at a fellow member's show here in Florida. And this experience will vividly display what could happen.

The show takes place in a small room, just one among several rooms in that venue, The room accommodates about 50 people, seated and standees. It has a bar and about 5 tables. One person works the bar and waits on the tables (including food orders)

At one of the largest tables (one that could accommodate 6 or more people) sat one karaoke regular and 3 (newbies) young ladies. That table was the only place where any seating remained after two hours into the show!

Meanwhile, groups of people were coming into the room looking for seating and left when they found nothing that would work for them! A group of four grabbed our spots when my wife and I left. We were seated at a table for four with one other patron we had just made acquaintances with at the venue.

Back to the young ladies. All three of them sang but they purchased nothing. And again, people were coming into the room looking for seating, but left when they saw the absence of sufficient seating for a group their size!

Now, you figure out how much revenue each person would have to generate for the venue to pay for the karaoke. And also consider how much revenue was lost due to the 3 freeloading girls and the potential spenders who left due to a lack of seating?

Most notable, I could tell after an hour of attendance just what was going on in that room, in general. It's not that difficult! Maybe I couldn't be aware of everything, in a really large venue, but in smaller venues, if you really wanted to become cognizant of who is freeloading it doesn't take much effort!

Of course, Danny, if there are 200 people regularly in the establishment and 35 singers where you're at, it's not likely that you will be able to identify the "regular" freeloaders very easily. So, just ask management to have someone point out to you who it is that they want excluded from the rotation!

I don't have a problem with making announcements saying "folks, remember, if you enjoy this place and you enjoy the entertainment, please have a drink or two, have something to eat, enjoy yourself. Remember, we're here for your enjoyment and pleasure, spend a little money and have fun. We don't want all your money, just some of it. That way we can continue to keep this place running the way you like it and you can continue to come here and have fun."

SOMETHING like that, or along those lines. If the non spenders get offended then there is nothing lost. They weren't spending any money anyways.

To be honest, it took me a little while to learn to spend some money in support of the bar that I enjoyed coming to. I spent years and years raising my kids and I rarely went out AT ALL. I was in the mode of watching my money and trying to be frugal. In time I understood that I needed to support my local watering hole that I had fun at or it wouldn't be there anymore. I loosened the purse strings and worried a lot less about how much I was spending. I don't go crazy and run up $100 bar tab, but I drink, I eat and I tip the bartenders/waitress well. I find that I have a much better time that way.

People will pay to go into a movie for entertainment. They need to understand that they need to pay a bar or a restaurant too. Someone is paying the entertainer, the wait staff, the electric bill etc. The customer needs to pony up or go sit at home.

Stogie

That is a very well-worded and carefully thought out announcement. And.... I fully intend to plagiarize it word for word!

Also, I respect and appreciate you complete honesty and candor regarding your past spending habits. When I have gotten into debates with forum members who want to make excuses for and justify the existence of freeloaders hanging around karaoke, I wonder if those arguing with me are currently or have been guilty of the same behavior themselves?

Those arguing with me react like I have labeled something a problem when there none exists, or that the deadbeats I have encountered all have valid reasons for not spending any money! After some debate, the defenders of the non-spenders changed their "position" and took on the posture of "So what? Freeloaders really aren't a problem"! Well, obviously, you saw it as a problem or you wouldn't have changed your behavior.

Lastly, there are those who say that if it is a problem, it is not the KJ's problem it is management's. So we've made some progress. We've gotten some to transition from a mind-set that excused freeloaders, to a mind-set that believe freeloaders are not a problem, to a mind-set that if there is a problem it should be left to management to handle.

Now, Stogie, I don't intend to put words in your mouth, but when I use your announcement I will be doing so because I believe that the problem is as much mine to deal with as it is anyone elses!

Obviously this is a topic some people feel strongly about. Here is my take on it:

There will always be some customers who spend a bunch of money, and others who do not. I think as long as the "non-spenders" are there with a group of spender friends, it's okay. No one wants to make that customer unhappy and potentially drive off his or her friends. Like some people said, they might be the DD, may be a card-carrying AA member (do they have ID cards? That wouldn't be very anonymous!), or maybe they just want to go out with their friends but they do not have extra money. The economy is bad!

So how do you integrate that into your show? If they are a loner, and are not purchasing the products sold at the establishment, I don't consider that my problem. If they ask to sing and treat people with respect, I will gladly have them sing.

What about the big spender who tips the bartender 40% every night or buys a few rounds for his friends? That person, I am going to notice eventually; and I will encourage them to sing more often in the best way I can without making it seem unfair, e.g. duets or group songs. I also try harder to buy music these people request, and if they go, "hey man, I really want to hear some Kid Rock, can you play it later," I probably will because they are an especially valuable customer.

So what about the in-between people? I ask the bartender. They know I am working at their place to help them make money, not just provide entertainment with no sense of which customer is going to tip $20 or $0, or who is drinking top-shelf products vs who buys a pitcher and nurses it for 2 hours. The guy who puts $10 a night into the dart board or pool table is spending money too, so it's not just drinks and food they are buying.

And of course everyone knows this already, talk to the customers as much as you have time for, and you will find out which ones come there 5 times a week and who only shows up for karaoke. If some guy I don't know offers me a tip so they can sing next, I politely refuse and suggest they tip the bartender especially well. Then I ask later on if they did get a good tip from that person or not. If the bartender doesn't remember, the answer is probably no. If yes, I know that customer is at least someone they want to keep happy, so I try to let them sing as often as I can without being unfair to everyone else. I try to remember to call them up even if they have not written down a song yet, and I am more likely to spend a buck or two of my own money to buy them a drink on busy nights when there are a whole bunch of singers. "Sorry it's so busy, might be two or three beers between songs tonight, so lemme help you with the second one!"

The worst thing about karaoke is you wish you could let every person sing next. Well, I wait for a few couples to write down "Kid Rock - Picture," and then I call up a whole bunch of people at once whether they know each-other or not.

No one's job at a bar is totally without the ability to improve sales, even if you are not in a sales role. The cook at the place I like best, when he makes up a pizza or a big appetizer, he walks around the whole bar pretending to look for the person, even if he knows right where they are sitting. Then a couple more people smell that delicious pizza and go, hrm, I want one of those. This is probably why the food sales there has doubled since he started. Also, when he is not busy cooking or cleaning, he will go around and ask regulars if they want to order something, or tell them about the new thing they just put on the menu. Karaoke is the same, you are not taking peoples' money out of their hand, but you can still make people happy, keep them around longer, and encourage them to spend their money.

Another thing I do is, on real busy nights (we will have 40 or 50 different singers on a busy Saturday) I usually know who is friends with who, and I break them up so if John and Marsha both put in a solo song, I put John in real soon, then I put Marsha back about 1/2 way through the rotation from John. It isn't unfair to them because I could put them both at the end, but it makes them happier because the reason they came there together is to sing, and they are more entertained by themselves or their friend singing, than some people they do not know. This works great when you know all the regulars and you can space them out so a familiar face is every third or fourth singer on a busy night, but you are not really letting them sing more than anyone else; you are making sure someone from their group of friends is singing frequently.

Oh yeah, and bottled water is awesome. I mean it's terrible for the environment and it sucks for a DD (who is well within their right to ask for free coke and water, and should, IMO) but this bar did that to some card players recently. They came in and never spent money, and as a group, did a lot of aggravating things; so the staff really got tired of them. The owner realized he was not making money on them either, so guess what, they bought some bottled water, and now those water drinking card players, who are not polite customers and who they would just as soon see go down the street, have to pay $1 or whatever for that water. Is that wrong? No way man, rent, electric, bartender's time to wait on them, tables taken up, blablah. A bar is in business to make money, not to be fair to everyone regardless of if they spend a lot of money or none at all.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Well, that covered a lot of ground.

But, most notably, it made one very clear and EXTREMELY important, but previously unpronounced GERMANE POINT ------- EVERYbody working at the venue is there to INCREASE SALES.

And if among that 50-singer rotation there are 5 regularly attending freeloaders who come every week (by themselves) to sing, there will be singers who aren't reluctant to part with their money and will head down the road to do so at a place where the rotation maybe a bit smaller and freeloaders aren't occupying valuable space!

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The employees who know better than anyone are the waitresses. They know who is just sitting there and not spending any money. If the management is sharp they will get this information from the waitstaff and do SOMETHING. If it was my bar or I was the manager I would.

It's a business and the purpose is to make money. Most businesses wouldn't tolerate this kind of customer for very long and unless the person is entertaining other customers by their presence or in some way benefiting the business by being there then they don't need to be there. Period, end of story.

The small bar where I first sang Karaoke and where I blossomed as a singer is where I learned to spend some money, loosen up, have fun and $upport my favorite watering hole.

As I became a regular-before I really started spending money more freely-I developed a group of people who clearly enjoyed me simply being there and who enjoyed my singing. When I walked in the door the place erupted in greetings and welcome. I was part of the entertainment and the experience there. I was absolutely an asset to that business. I didn't get paid. My compensation was my pleasure and enjoyment of being there. I had quite a few free drinks bought for me by customers and the bar. When I was there people had fun, they had a good time and spent money.

However, if a customer is just taking up space, adds nothing, spends no money, isn't benefiting the bar or restaurant in some way, then they don't need to be there. How many restaurants will allow someone to sit there for three hours without buying anything? Want to sit around and take up space somewhere? Go to the library.

Stogie

Unlike you, too posters, many of whom are KJ's, don't realize that the problem shouldn't be ignored and that it may be in their own best interest to be actively involved in making sure that it is not!

There is one irony in what you posted regarding how the staff should react:


And this is that irony as it regarded your circumstances. According to what you have said, I can only assume that prior to you becoming part of the "GROUP", you were alone and spending little if anything. I, furthermore, can't help but imagine that at some point the waitstaff realized that you weren't a spender. Nonetheless, the management did nothing in response to that reality!

So, as a businessman, I have these rhetorical questions: [/i] Did the waitstaff realize you were freeloading? If they did, was management informed? If management was informed did they care, or were you just an "isolated incident" to them? If they cared, were they in the establishment during the time of day that you were?

To answer your questions, I was never a freeloader. That place had minimal service. If you wanted something you had to go to the bar and even then it was slow to get service.

Did they notice that I wasn't a big spender? Yeah, I think they did, but they also quickly noticed the benefits of me being there. I wasn't a water drinker who sat quietly taking up space, so I guess I'm the exception.

I also did things for them. I worked in the cigar business so I was knowledgeable and I helped their customers select cigars. I also ended up running their cigar concession at festivals and special events for them. I brought a lot of benefits to them.

The comments I made earlier in the thread were intended to show that even people who are not big spenders can learn to be good customers. If not, they need to shuffle along to another business where they don't care or notice if customers buy anything or not.

COOL CLEAR WATER!!! Keepa Movin Dan He's A Devil Not A Man And Crossed The Desert Sands No Water!!!

BTW This me 60 years later singing the first song I ever did in publlic in a 2 room school house.


lyrics

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Stogie

Thanks for the feedback. I apologize if my use of "freeloader" offended you.

BTW, ,my wife and I enjoy a good cigar, with Cognac from time to time.

Since it's something we don't indulge in regularly, I only picked up a handful of cigars when we were in the Dominican in Feb

Any recommendations?

Karyoker, please, please post some VIDEO. I would really like to see and hear you sing. You can put something up on Youtube easily and for free and from what I understand there are other websites similar to Youtube now where you can post video.

Eric, I want to ask you one last time since you have never answered me on this question.
How much does one need to spend (in your eyes) to not be a 'freeloader'? $1, $5, $10, $100? What is the absolute minimum that one should spend in an establishment?

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I hate to even say this, but there is ONE good use for freeloaders--they at least make it look like someone is at your show. As reported above, we were experiencing a freeloader problem which was cured when the bar owner put a different barmaid in for our night. The ones that were evidently being comped now only go to the Friday show where the barmaid they like still works. So we started getting the, "There's no one here, I think I'll go next door," problem and wished we had those freeloaders back, just to make an audience for the new people we had venturing in.

That being said, by luck, two karaoke shows in the area got cancelled and we started getting in some refugees from those. Some of the afore-mentioned freeloaders were rather volatile and high maintenance and we noticed that with them gone, the atmosphere was less tense. So we kept our newcomers for the entire night. We are building up yet again.

But a light did go off in my head the other evening when some friends and I were trying to decide wether or not to try a new restaurant or go next door to our usual spot. We looked in the window of the new place and saw just one person sitting there and decided, "Well, maybe next time," and went next door. I said, "That's just what happens to us at our karaoke show!" So I could understand management knowing about freeloaders but perhaps keeping them around to make it look like a happening place. At least for a while, anyway. (PS--we decided to give the new place a try after my "revelation" but when we went back we discovered the reason only one person was in there was because they were closed that day--but it was still a lesson in crowd psychology.)

In any venue the till should be running about a grand. Mine run about 3 times that and most of my singers do not drink although they eat and their friends drink. If you are in a little hole in the wall for $100/night then I guess you would be concerned with water drinkers. I have never had that problem.

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I have discussed this topic in depth and length for two years.

I don't know how much someone needs to spend, but I do know who is a freeloader! How much money does someone have to possess, Lonman, in order for us ALL to agree he is rich?

On the other hand, I think we all could more easily agree as to who is poor? Likewise, a freeloader is easy to identify. He/she is someone who regularly appears at a show and regularly purchases nothing, or practically nothing!

I think that most of us would agree that a person who regularly (every week) shows up at a dining establishment during dinner hour, stays all night, and purchases nothing or maybe a cup of coffee or soda (both with refills), has no intention of EVER leaving MUCH money behind!

And those who consistently do this know who they are and what their intentions are! They are self-centered singers who only care about "their moment in the sun", using the words of one poster from a few years back. That poster stated what has become clear to me by observing freeloaders - their objective is to sing regardless of how much it DOESN'T cost!

And how freeloaders operate became even clearer to me when I continued to frequent (support) my favorite places even though I couldn't sing due to throat surgery for a polyps on my vocal chords. So, I'm buying dinner for my wife and I, resulting in my directly providing the entertainment for a GROUP of people who wants to sing each week but won't fork over a few bucks of their own to do so.

Again, it is not for me to denote with specificity what one must spend. I don't spend the same every time. But if a person regularly frequents a restaurant during "dinner time", week in and week out, how does one do so with never spending more than $5 with the tip? Some of these singers actually believe they have no "obligation" to spend money since THEY ARE THE ENTERTAINMENT!

As to freeloaders providing a benefit to any business by making it appear that the business is more vibrant than it actually is ..... How about this? Roller skating rinks are dying around here and probably everywhere else! I am going to go to each one of the remaining local rinks next week and offer my services as a marketing consultant. And my first recommendation will be that they let people skate for free so that it will appear like roller skating is entering a revival period! Sound good?

I think it might work. Sort of like when bars offer free drinks to ladies or free drinks to the first karaoke singers to sign up when they are first getting started. Or free corn beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's Day. They may lose money on it at first but crowds beget crowds.

We just haven't experienced that thing BruceFan describes where singers are the only 3 singers so they bring their friends so they will get to sing more often. It is usually more that they want someone to sing TO, want a pool of people to dance with, meet, hook up, talk to, etc. If all your roller skaters had a good time and it looked like THE place to be, they might want to keep coming back there as paying customers next time.

Two weeks ago a birthday party ventured in and we had a big night. Some of the new people who were there had a great time and came back last week. When they saw there wasn't that same crowd, they left for next door--if they had just waited one more round, a new crowd was to arrive but people don't have much patience these dyas.

No you've beat this horse beyond death!


So in short there is no right answer in what someone must spend. What is PRACTICALLY nothing to you, $1, $5, $10 more? So spending 'practically' nothing is no longer a freeloader by the definition since they are in fact spending?
So the poor have no rights to enjoy entertainment is basically what you are driving at? Understood.


Dining establishment or not, people go for entertainment, if that was the only place to get the entertainment they want, then they go to a dining establishment. Does this mean they HAVE to eat? If the establishment is giving refills, then again, another bad on them, they should charge for every drink being poured whether it just be coffee, soda or even water.


Two of my regulars for 10 years - who where raging alcoholics, you'd of loved them, they spent tons per night, recently quit drinking about a year ago completely due to health problems for the wife, he quit to support her. Now they come in just as they always did, but drink water & soda. They get charged for every refill, but their tabs now add up to no more than $5-6 bucks for a night. Should they no longer be allowed to come in. They are very entertaining, people do enjoy to hear them and even stay to hear them, but since they are now 'freeloaders' in the sense you like to term them, they should either be told to start spending more (on what I don't know - not a restaurant after 9 when karaoke starts) or tell them they are no longer supporters of the club & should just leave.
Yeah I think not.


Well I can see someone coming in for the entertainment, not wanting to eat dinner there. If the entertainment HAPPENS to be at dinnertime (which is unheard of around here) I can see someone coming in for a couple sodas, & since the place don't charge for refills, yeah I can see them spending $5 all night.
If they aren't spending at all or even ordering, then this is no longer freeloading, but downright trespassing/loitering & the manager has every right by law to remove those people. But since you cannot put a figure on what someone should spend, this discussion is pretty much moot point. I agree someone should spend something. But how much is up to them. You do NOT know circumstances in what you only see at a show. How do you know they don't spend there maybe at lunch - see karaoke offered & come in for it, or earlier before you see these people, you can only assume & speculate. Which makes you look like a
It's becoming rediculous why you continue your quest, it's not going to change, you have not one solution and continue to whine. While it's apparant that most feel completely opposite & do see it as a major problem or concern - LET IT GO ALREADY!!!!!


Um, skating rinks offer buy one get one free admission or greatly discounted sessions all the time. They make up the percentage in volume - so yes, if you made that suggestion to a skating rink, they probably would do that - to a point! My kids go to the skating rink a couple times a week.

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I don't think so, Leopard!

"My" freeloaders do what they do consistently. But, you, like so many other over the years want to impute a greater value to them by creating hypothetical circumstances. In actuality, people who consistently freeload are not providing one dollar towards the bottom line.

Of course, I, as a businessman can ignore what I've learned and tell everyone not to worry about freeloaders, because:

a) they make the place look busy
b) they help fill in the rotation when there is a shortage of singers
c) they let other freeloaders know (and they have) about the marvelous show they are currently frequenting (freeloading at)
d) they place no strain on the wait staff
e) they are entertaining