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Ok, first of all let me say, that as far as general things go, it's going pretty good. The new show is a hit, two of the three of my others are still going strong. But here's the issue.

Most of my venues, except for the new one, I have been hosting for at least 3 years, one is over 4. So, I guess you can say I have been a pillar of stability for the most part. One place however, my Friday gig, is dying badly! The way things go in my neck of the woods is, winters are busy, and summers taper off a bit for camping and outdoor stuff. However, last year about this time, my Friday show, tapered off just as I had expected. The winter business, however never returned. I'm not really sure why. Economy? Owner not being smart? Me? Dunno the reason, honestly. The owner is overall pretty happy with what I have done over the last 3 years. I draw the largest crowds of the week, including his band nights. I was talking to a friend last night about this subject, and he suggested that the problem might be the fact the owner brings in crappy bands for Saturday nights, and the people perceive this place as NOT being "fun" anymore. He said that it might be carrying over to my Friday shows. The perception being, "this place isn't fun".

Last nights show was absolutely horrid! Very slow. We only had a total of 28 people in the place, and I only had 5 singers, not including myself. This place used to draw over a hundred, and I would usually attract as many as 28 singers, averaging about 22. The place itself is really nice. Sorta a lodge looking place, clean and great seating. It has a very large dance floor that will hold as many as a couple hundred people. The bar will seat around 475 patrons. Although it is located in a small town, that is for the most part quite religous, and really is not a "party" town. So as you can surmise this place has not acheived its potential at all.

The owner is his own worst enemy. He really is a nice guy when he is sober, which is rare though. He makes business decisions while he has been drinking. Some of which are good, others not. Like I said before, bad bands, raising his prices to the point of shock, and not listening to what the people want, is bringing the place down. He even has put the "feelers" out to sell the place, for the right price, which is really not realistic at all.

Ok, i'm not saying that I am the answer, or have the answer either. I honestly don't know if i'm part of the problem, I hope i'm not. If my other shows are an indication of how I do things, then I believe the problem lies elsewhere. Or at least I would like to think that, dunno. The owner has never said that he wants to quit karaoke, because I still draw the largest crowds of the week as a general rule.

The question is, "Is it time to replace this show?" I keep getting paid, nobody is saying to me that its my fault. But, i'm feeling quite frusterated at the moment. Suggestions and constructive comments would be much appreciated and considered from anyone who can.

Thanks in advance. Scott

Scott I flat will not work for an owner that sits at the end of bar drunk and run my customers off. Their only customers are the alkies that sell food stamps and sit there drinking all day. It creates a woe is me atmosphere which kills a bar eventually and your business.

Seek out a bar where the owner is busy in the kitchen or one that has hired a professional mngr that knows how to hire and train staff. In these places you can develop a very good working relationship with everybody and form bonds.

The first beer I buy at my gigs my host knows that I am no longer the boss but just another customer and that is well understood.

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karyoker,

The owner usually leaves rather early, so he sitting there drinking himself into oblivion for the most part, isn't seen by the biggest share of the people. However, the decisions he makes do happen at any time.

The other problem her, that I did not mention (sorry), is I live a very rural area. The towns are quite far apart, and usually small. The largest town in a 50 mile radius is only about 3000 residents. In fact there are only 2 bars less than 35 miles away. And this is one of them. The other one is only a few blocks from my house, and I used to host there, but told the owner to stuff it, kinda for the reasons you mentioned ( he runs his customers off, because he is a total arse).

My other shows I host are quite a drive for me each week. One is 79 miles one way, the second is 58 miles one way, and the last is 98 one way. So you can see, I am willing to do whatever it takes to do a show. Even put up with a small frustration.

However, in this case, do I leave on my terms? and find another show farther away? or do I just let this one play out to the end if necessary?

Every place I work is for sale "for the right price" and everyone knows it. I don't think that's the problem. But if his drink prices aren't in line with others in your area that's a big problem and nothing you can do will remedy it. Customers pay a lot of attention to that.

I'm getting a mental picture of the room. If you put 28 people in my place, it still looks active enough for someone walking through the door to come on in. But if you put 28 people in a room that seats 475 it's going to look absolutely dead!

I greatly prefer smaller more intimate surroundings for karaoke and probably wouldn't stick around even if the place were busier. But your choices are what they always are for us guys:

1. Do I need the job?
2. Is there an alternative?
3. Are there some singers whom I truly enjoy and make it worthwhile?
4. Is the place about ready to fold? (It is always better to quit a situation like that).

Bill,

He actually has NO competition! The nearest bar to him is the one a few blocks from me, which is 30+ miles away. The next closest is about 40 miles in the other direction. We live in an area that is sorta "dry" because of the religious issue. ( Utah if you must know) Bars are not very busy to begin with because only about 20 percent of the people even drink at all. And most of them do it behind closed doors, so no one will know they drink. Bar business here in Utah is a hard business to be profitable. But still possible if done right. This is the issue, bar isn't ran right. And is dying fast. So, as far as the questions you posed?

Yes, I need the work.
Alternative? Possibly. My new show might consider putting me on permanent fridays. Dunno
Singers who make it enjoyable? Absolutely. But some will follow me to other shows. Even considering the drive.
Is the place ready fold? I believe so, just not sure how much longer it will last. Thats the big question.

Do I stay to the bitter end? or end it on my terms.

Scott

I say if you need the money and the work then you need to ride it out until it become unbearable. Wow... the driving you do is exhausting just hearing about it. Hell, I complain about a 15 minute drive and you are driving over an hour to some gigs. Kinda makes me feel like a whiner. I know leaving that venue is easily justified but with economy the way it is you may want to consider staying until greener pastures come calling. Just my 2 cents!!! Good luck

I'm going to risk sounding cliche', but I really believe this:

It's time to move on when you no longer enjoy doing it, because I think our enjoyment is conveyed to the patrons, and the lack of it the same- and will affect the show.

It sounds like you are getting disenchanted with the venue. I would start looking around, and if you find something you like, grab it. Until then, ride it out.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I would stay to the bitter end and make what you can from it. In the end, who knows? Maybe the new owners will re-hire you and actually make it work. Or maybe your new venue will hire you at that time.
But as long as you're getting paid, I wouldn't leave.
Get what you can while you can.

The ecomomy has hit everyone - unemployment is highest it's been in years, I can imagine it's worse to clubs that one would have to 'drive' a bit to get to - gas prices were a huge factor last year, a little more manageable right now, but still high to someone pinched for cash. Which is probably a part of the winter crowd not really returning. Then with the jacked up drink prices - another factor, if people can't afford to drive out to the place, they certainly can't afford to drink there at higher prices. The bands shouldn't affect your nights as you have already been established & people know you & your show, so even if the bands are crappy, that shouldn't have an affect on your nights.
But if you feel the place is going to fold, then I would look for a new place now, like mentioned, you want to get out before that happens. The company I worked for in 92 had a system in a place, we were going to pick it up the next day as we were too tired to pack it up after the previous nights show. Went back & the sign on the door was out of business. It took almost 2 weeks to finally get hold of the owner to get our stuff out.

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Which is EXACTLY why I will NEVER, EVER leave my gear behind at a venue.
EVER (did I say that already? )
Even if they don't go out of business, and there's a fire or other disaster, their insurance might not cover my gear. There's no way to really know for sure unless the venue owner is willing to let you look at their insurance policy. Even then, I wouldn't do it because there's no way of knowing if their payments are up to date. If they let it their payments lapse, no insurance.

Given the options you have Scott sticking it out may be the best one.

Basically it sounds like you have no other options except maybe Fridays in a room you already have. You might want to explore that.

I agree with Lonnie that bands etc. on other nights should not affect karaoke nights. Karaoke fans don't care what goes on other nights. My home room is dead on Fridays and they've tried a variety of things. The singers and fans of karaoke come on Thursdays and Saturdays anyway.

Mr Scott

I just learned a valuable "lesson" - an hour is not that far to drive for some people. Maybe I should be looking for venues that are further away than 15 minutes myself?

In response to your question: The best plan would be to start working, slowly but surely, on replacing the gig. Clearly, if you start doing that now, you'll be in a better position when the time comes to move on! And encourage friends and singersto help promote and find prospects for you. No one has to know it is to replace an existing gig! And you might offer someone a "gift" if they find a lead that turns into a gig!

I tend to agree with Joe about the possibility that you might have lost your enthusiasm for the place and that such a development might noticeably impact your demeanor. However.... there are people who have to go to work everyday and not let on that they have lost their taste for what they are doing! Actors in a stage production often have to re-invigorate themselves for their repetitious roles!

If the rotation stays below a dozen or so, it maybe time to introduce something new, such as more dance music or sing-alongs.... something that will re-energize the crowd. Perhaps?

Lastly: The time to DEFINITELY quit a venue, whether you have another gig or not, is when the venue diminishes your reputation in any significant fashion!

Just what I was going to mention, Ericlater....If the club is sliding off into oblivion, and you are the entertainment, even though you are NOT at fault, it may seem to pottential customers that the reason the place isn't hopping is because of the entertainment. The other thing is, at this time the owner/manager may tell you he's happy with what you're doing, but don't be lulled into a state of false confidence. It could be that the place could go at any moment and you don't want to be caught with your karaoke pants down. I would begin researching other venues. Offer a finder's fee of a 2-hour private party if they find you a permanent gig; or a 4-hour gig if it turns into two nights. Be careful that they don't know you intend on replacing your night there - just appear to be adding a night.

That feeling of wondering from show to show just isn't a good one when you're trying to provide upbeat entertainment ... and though you may not think it shows, it just has to affect the way you approach your job at this point. I know it would me.

First of all, I have to give you props for driving so far for your different gigs. You must really love hosting karaoke!

If I were you, I would sit down with the owner of the bar early one day and say hey, I know business is down, my Fridays are hurting. I do not know how the other days are going but some customers have remarked that the economy, choice of bands, or whatever must really be keeping people at home. Tell him you are doing the best job you can every day, and that you think you could use some help from the other side of the bar to build your Friday back up.

Now if the owner is willing to listen, and I would guess he is since you have been there for several years and used to be the biggest crowd-draw even over bands, here are some ideas, I am sure you will have more of your own too.

1) karaoke contest can be fun. you can do it in one night or pick some "finalists" over a few weeks and then have a final competition for some prize money. you can charge a few dollars or make it free. and you can combine with other KJs who may work at the venue on different nights if you like them. try to be as fair as you can.

2) guest singers / multi-format. go around to all the local bands you like and tell them your Fridays are hurting and you could really use a little help. see if they will come to your venue when they are not booked elsewhere, get the owner to let them and a friend/date have employee discount drink prices for that night or whatever. don't only let these people sing of course, but make sure you repay them by announcing the name of their band and let them say their myspace or whatever so customers could potentially look for them.

3) drink specials, yeah you mentioned the owner raised prices a lot, that is rough but everything has gone up lately around here too. A beer that was $2.25 last year is now $2.75 and it might go up again soon. Get yourself some good drink specials.

There's a thousand other things you can do too, just talk to that owner and figure something out. If he is not willing to adjust to help your Fridays, then at that point, in my opinion, it is time to start looking for another gig. You don't make money when your place is at 5% of capacity.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

The problem is NOT YOU. The problem is not the bands. The problem is the owner.

You have already stated that he is a lush and makes poor decisions when drunk. Well it goes further than that and what you see. Youre only there for 1 maybe 2 nights. Figure in the other 5 nights of the same(drunk, probably obnoxious and running off custies). Place starts getting a reputation for having a drunk, nasty owner. People dont want to go there. Hence a continual decline in business and ultimately OUT OF BUSINESS!!

The problem is not YOU or anything U do at YOUR SHOW.

Evidence 3 successful years at this one and 3-4 at all your others. Keep doing what you are doing successfully.

The problem is your DRUNK OWNER. He and ONLY HE sets the tone for the employees, staff and entire operation of the bar. You are now seeing the results of his leadership style. The inevitable slide and destruction of his business. Your are only there 1 or 2 nights as entertainment and CANNOT SAVE HIM or the situation(much as you might want to).

This will not improve with time. Solution is out of your hands.

Time to start looking around, leave this one behind and not take the hit when he has a drunk tantrum, makes a big scene midway through a show and decides(drunkenly) to blame you and fire you.

Leave now and on your own terms.

When he BEGS you to come back--you must politely decline.

Being around him is TOXIC, the atmosphere there sounds poisonous and cannot help your business reputation.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. I am still in a dilemma on what to do. My loyalties tell me to stick it out. The owner has always been very pleasant with me. So, it makes me want to keep trying to make things work. However, he is a typical self made succesful business man, ( in his own mind ) so he rarely listens to others and their opinions. His is the only one that matters to him. This bar is his own little clubhouse, and he will do whatever he wants. I just wish he would see how badly things are becoming, and make some crucial decisions in order to not go belly up. Last night (not my night, it was band night) he scheduled a different kind of performer, a country comedian/singer. A friend of ours who was there, kept texting my wife on how horrid it was, and that people just starting leaving. That's the whole problem. People want what they want, not what the owner wants. Our friend said that less than 50 customers were there, and by the end of the show, there was only about 15.

I believe this actually DOES influence my nights as well. I don't just attract karaoke singers, I also get dancers, pool players, dart throwers, and just general drinkers. So, if they "perceive" this place as not being fun on one particular night, then they also perceive it as not fun on all the nights. I honestly would like to be able to continue, but it's not looking good at all.

Last night, at my new show, I approached the manager on this very subject. And told her if things do go sour at my friday show, would she be interested in my doing her fridays as well. She was quite excited with the idea. Her gal that does her fridays now, is causing "issues", and they want her gone ASAP. My show last night again was very succesful, around 34 singers, and about 75 customers. And this isn't a big place at all. Plus they had tons of fun. So this is the alternative I need to consider, doing the new place on all fridays and every other saturday. And just walking away from my now friday gig.

Still undecided yet though. Three plus years at a place that has done nothing but treat me well, is hard to walk away from, even if it is dying.

Thanks again all
Scott

Time for you to make a BUSINESS DECISION.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Yup, and those business decisions aren't always the easiest - one of my venues, where I hosted every weekend for two years, had a manager that I had grown not to trust for any number of reasons. For 3-4 mos I debated and debated, knowing that if I left there all the singers who had been partronizing the show for all that time, and who LOVED the place as a singer's venue, would be cut loose. For my own peace of mind I finally found the opportunity to move on. It was painful for me and for the serving staff. We had a great and mutually beneficial relationship. But in the end I really felt I had no choice. Not long ago I got a call from this manager inquiring where I was doing weekend shows and would I PLEASE come back. Nope, sorry. Made that decision once, wouldn't do it again.

The problem is obviously the economy! I don't know how we try to fool ourselves that millions of people lose their Jobs but no one is affected! However, that is NOT the issue. What you need to consider is, if everything went back to normal would you want this gig? You seemed to be fine with all the owner issues when it was popping, now everything is in doubt.

Do you want the job in the future or not? If you do, stick it out. If you are just tried of everything and wouldn't want the job even if it went back to the good old days, GET OUT RIGHT NOW! It is just like a Cheating Sponse, you knew the people was a PIG before you married them, but when you talk to enough friends or see someone else that interest you, you all of a sudden care! You know the owner was a JERK or BAD Business person when things were good, but when things get bad, you all of a sudden care! Please don't take offense, but KEEP IT REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Karaokebaby,

You just gave me a good way to look at it. No, the owner is NOT a jerk, he just drinks too much, and makes poor decisions, mostly for selfish reasons - he just does things his way, not the right way. He really is a good man, and I like both him and his wife. If the business was poppin' like you said, I would stay in a heartbeat. I actually love the place. But that is really not the question.

The question is, do i stay to the end if its coming? or do I just move on and leave a ship that may be sinking? I have long considered this gig, my main gig. It's my most local one, and it's also the one that has the easiest set up, best acoustics and most potential. I just don't want to have it take my reputation down with it. But that's not a certainty either.

As far as the owner goes, yes, it's in his hands the success or failure of the place. With the poor business decisions he has made over the years, it's all finally coming to a head now. He is reaping what he sowed. I am just hoping for the best, honestly.

Scott