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Lately I've been using the YAMAHA EMX512SC powered mixer for my shows.
I extremely happy with the unit so far except for the EFFECTS. Basically I've tried all the effects and not satisfied with them unless it seems I apply almost all the mixer will give me

I understand that EFFECTS should not be overpowering but "I" (personally choice) like them to be noticed but not overbearing to the mixe and singer.

Can a seperate EFX unit be plugged into the mixer to work with the internal EFX ?
If so what are some decent suggestions? Anyone else using this mixer and maybe can offer some tips or suggestions ?

Yup. It has an FX send, so just send out of that and come back in one of the channels.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Jam I run a CFX12 and this is how I finally hooked it up for max.

I run inserts to the 266XL The I feed a Lexicon MPX 550 with Aux1 and return thru a spare mic channel. It blows my mind how much control you have over it. It adds punch to the vocals The channel aux1 feeds are at unity on the stage mics although I can feed a small tad of music to it.. also use Efx1 send to a microverb4 and just Efx1 back' Out of the main inserts I feed a Bbe362 and and an Aphex 104. All procs are pretty much run full wet although I dont feed them unity gain.

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Yes definitely you can do that, and I would recommend it. Use your aux sends and EFX send for mono signals to the outboard equipment. Bring each back into the board on a separate channel (as opposed to the EFX returns). Bring your reverb in on a stereo channel as the stereo imaging is an important aspect of the reverb effect. Delay (echo) can be brought in on a mono channel without losing much unless it's a hopping delay.

As far as effects units go, if money is no object and you can find used units this is my preference:

Reverb - Yamaha SPX 1000 or T.C. Electronics M-One (both are multi-effects processors but are classics in the recording industry for their reverb)

Delay (echo) - T.C. Electronics D-Two or Roland SDE-1000 (the D-Two is still in production and is easy as hell to use, the Rolad is a classic but no longer being produced so you'd have to find a used unit)

If the above are too expensive or hard to find, look at the Lexicon multi-effects units, they've got some really nice models.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Yea I do like to setup a certain way but I hosts that dont have a clue and I have to keep it simple. The less they have accessable and can turn is better. There are disadvantages in having a complicated system.

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must admit that the efx do let yamaha desks down somewhat...I guess my ears have adjusted to what I am using but hated it when I first heard it...but husband wasnt about to let me run out and buy a stand alone unit

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

The emx512 is a BOX type mixer and I'm not currently using any RACK equipment

ALESIS has 2 little box type units .... Are these any good or will I be just be getting more of the same PRESET dissapointing effects ?????

The Alesis Microverb4 works fairly decent. What kind of EFX are you looking for? On the overall mix or vocals? Sometimes a room with hard walls and a lot of reverbs will screw up EFX and you cant use as much or even get the results you want. Also practice with the EFX on different music listening to the headphones on the mixer out.

On the verb4 I use 198 which is Warm plate with a slow stereo flange. The timing and delay is critical for heavy bet songs like Folsom Prison. The 100-199 are preset and stored.

The other I use is 1999 which is bright room with thick stereo flange I use this with duets and chorus in the mixer.

On a well adjusted system you get used to it and dont hear EFX but when you go on another system you struggle and wonder where your voice went.

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You know, the more I think about this the more I wonder if you have an issue with gain structure. The EFX unit on your mixer should be plenty capable of producing extremely noticeable delay and reverb effects.

Do you understand the concept of setting your input attenuation? Get this set right so that the strongest peaks hit right around 0 dbu on the meter. Then go to the EFX send controls on each of the channel strips. Are they set appropriately? I believe the Yamaha's have a mark (and maybe even a detent) at the 0db point. Start there and adjust as necessary to send a strong but not clipping signal to the effects processor.

Make sure everything leading up to the EFX unit is at the appropriate operating level. This is a much cheaper solution than buying an external effects processor.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

This is very true. And while an Alesis would work OK, it isn't any better than the onboard effects. Unless you are planning on getting a Lexicon or better, why bother?

Are you sure the FX send on the channel is up?

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Rip has a great point. I noted that when I had my gains way out of whack things were a bit spotty. I switched from wired XM8500 mics to wireless inexpensive mics and the gain structure went all to hell. I noted I couldn't get great echo on a couple of singers who sing songs that lend themselves to it. I started using inline attenuation pads to bring the gain back to unity and have gotten sound back to where it was with the wired mics (Ok, not quite as good, the wireless system isn't great).

Here are a couple of links explaining it:

http://www.livesoundint.com/archives/20 ... basics.pdf

http://www.prosonicsolutions.com/articl ... ucture.pdf

http://www.rane.com/note135.html

Hope that helps.

For accuracy use something like this.


linl

It is a software that uses a computer to put out various signals to evaluate gain and freq response of audio gear.

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OK now you guys got my head spinning

I'll take the MIXER and set it up in my basment and play with it a little and see what I come up with as far as the gain and other settings to see if I can get something better before going to another effects unit.

Thanks for your help and I'll let you know my results ASAP ( day or two )

THANKS

I got the feeling that might be happening which is why I went back to gain structure. It is the single most important aspect of your sound reinforcement strategy. Gain structure is the foundation on which you build everything else.

When you go down to your basement, take a copy of the articles that Gyrf linked to with you. The one from Live Sound International (The first link) is a great step by step quick and dirty guide. The other two give more context and explain why you're doing what you're doing.


Of all the KJ's I've ever seen in person, I'd say at least 90% of them have had noticeable issues with gain structure. So if you can get that down and understand it you'll be miles ahead of your competition from what I can tell. Good luck, let us know how it goes.

*EDIT* - Actually I take it back, after reading the article a little closer, I don't like the strategy employed in the Live Sound International article. In order to better maximize your signal to noise ratio, you want to get as much gain as early in the signal path as possible. You should be setting your input attenuation (gain/trim whatever you want to calll it) to the max level before clipping before you even start worrying about faders. The faders are your mix control and overall volume control. I should have read that article closer before recommending it. Sorry.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Jam: Real quick test is a simple look at your board. If your fader slides are all over the board with nothing in a roughly set position then you really need to look at your gain structure. If all your faders are aligned across the board then you're in pretty good shape, even if the line is not at 0. Your faders should looks like this:

| | | | | | | +10
- - - - - - - 0
| | | | | | | -5
| | | | | | | -20
| | | | | | | -40

If they look like this:

| - | | | | | +10
- | | | | | - 0
| | - | - | | -5
| | | - | | | -20
| | | | | - | -40

Then your gain structure is all FUBAR and your FX, compression and virtually all other items will behave inconsistently between channels. Now it may not be a big issue depending on the source but on dynamic things like microphones it can have a dramatic impact.

Ideally you get your gain set to 0 and adjust your inputs to get just under clipping at what would be normal volume level. I'm not sure how the use of a powered mixer impacts that, I use a mixer/amp combo, but there should be some way to set gain on the mixer and gain on the amp.

Well, hang on here. That's a spectrum analyzer, that has absolutely nothing to do with gain structure. Spectrum analyzers are what you'd use to EQ your PA for the room. Generate pink noise and eq to ensure all frequencies are being equally represented in the room. This is tuning for the output side of your rig. Gain structure deals with the inputs and signal path. Let's not confuse the issue more.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

With it you can feed any freq or a sweep and check the gain and get the results in DB's. Accurate in and accurate out and see if it is meeting manu specs. You can also see where the head room ends and clips with a proper level in. I use a dual trace 100 MHZ scope in addition to the real time. In real life you would have test points like at the Pre out and check the gain in each stage for proper gain structure.

That is the main purpose of a spectrum analyzer sweep is to check the GAIN for the entire frequency band. I have used them for all freqs including TV & radar bands.

As far as gain structure if you have enough power you dont need to run amps at max. I do not run my faders at max. Its like saying run your car with the tach at red line all the time. When you are running EFX you are right in the sense that they both have to have the right levels. With both at mid range and the EFX on post you have more control.

Gain structure is keeping all stages at the same gain level for whatever you need out When I read run your faders at max I cringe. I'll do that outdoors but not inside. No wonder you have feedback problems..

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And how do you fix it when 100MHz comes in at 0 dbu but 1.6K is at +4? You don't go to the input attenuation nor do you go to the fader. You go to the EQ and you take out 4db at 1.6K. The only affect that has on gain structure is that adjusting the EQ decreases the overall level of the signal, so you'd have to adjust the input attenuation again. This is beyond gain structure. A clip at 1.6K will show up on the meters the same as a clip at 250Mhz, so the spectrum analysis is irrelavent at this point.



I don't recall EVER suggesting that someone run their faders at max, I didn't even state run them at 0db. But again you've gone beyond gain structure and are now talking about sound levels instead of signal levels. Your INPUT SENSITIVITY on your amplifiers should be set so that when the console output is 0db the amplifier is delivering full power. This is the only gain structure to worry about in the output stage. How much power you deliver in the form of SPL is ultimately a sound level issue not a signal level issue (although screwed up gain structure can hurt you here).

Gain structure is about headroom and signal-noise ratio maximization. If you cut your signals too harshly at the input stage, everything else following it has to make up for that and will introduce noise. Additionally, you've lost head room in those stages. Set your input stage so that your peaks are at 0 db, then move on to the next step in the signal path and make sure that input and output of each step are at 0. Now when you finally get to the faders you can worry about the mix and the output stage.

Gain structure is only the first foundation you lay for the rest of your reinforcement rig. Once it's in place you have Equalization, Mix, Effects and a whole host of other issues to deal with. So let's not confuse the issue by bringing in more topics that in the end likely do not relate to the OP's issue.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

The faders are there for flexibility, plain and simple. There's nothing wrong with having some of them at +10 and others at -20, but keep in mind that whenever you attenuate the signal in one place and add gain to it later in the signal chain, you are adding noise. So if some of those faders are sitting pretty low, you may want to reduce gain in the pre-amp or raise them and lower the main mix fader appropriately. Don't add 60dB here, take away 30dB there, add 15dB later on, and so on, before you get to your amps.

The same is true of monitor and FX sends. With karaoke singers that have a wild range of vocals, you need a lot of head-room on FX sends since digital clipping sounds pretty aweful; but try not to dramatically under-drive your FX processors or you will end up with more noise than is necessary from the FX A/D/A and FX return gain.

Of course, 99% of the time no one will notice a little hiss here and there as long as your singers think they are Tim McGraw & Faith Hill.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Now you are talking about an RF amp. Any amp should be flat line (.5 DB or lower for solid state across the bandwidth. -3DB at the low and -3 DB at the high high end.If youhave a 4 DB variance in that frequency range you have a problem.



In a broadcast station TV FM or Am the last thing the audio hits leaving the studio is a peak limiter. Balanced audio at 600 ohms should be at 0 DBM going to the transmitter. As a former broadcast CE I know this.



A mixer whether audio or video is about mixing all inputs at the proper level and feeding the power amp with proper levels. It does not need to be 0 DB The level control on the amp or powered speaker is an attenuator an just determines the amount of input needed for the desired power or SPL out. If you are feeding it 0DB then you are running the mixer at max and close to the headroom level. If you are running the computer or pre at low levels then you are introducing floor noise.

A video mixer has to be closer to 0 DB and timing is critical.



You are the one that initiated the discussion proper gain structure. I am an engineer and suggested some simple techniques on checking it other than golden ears. Then you as much said I didnt know what the hell I was talking about!!! Lets go get a beer!! We have turned this thread into an informative one to say the least..

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