Karaoke Forums

Now I'm quoting myself. Is that a sign of something bad?

I never trust sales people. I went to a local GC about a month ago and found that their pro audio wing was getting new carpet so the room was closed. They didn't have anything out on display. Before I could get out of there a salesman caught me and so I decided to talk to him about mixers. He really wanted to show me something even though their demo room was shut down. He offered to help me look up some stuff on the GC website. I told him, that was okay, I could do that at home. He proceeded to lookup stuff on the website anyway, then when he got an idea of what I was looking for, he told me that he would go in the back room and pull one out so I could look at it. Nice guy and I appreciate him going out of his way to help me but I think there is another motive here.

I think a lot of consumers are heading out to the brick and mortar stores to window shop and then buying the same products online for less. I think sales people want to make the sale right away so they don't end up loosing the sale to an internet dealer.

Aside from all that I think the salesman at my local music shop probably didn't want to sell me an Allen & Heath because either he doesn't have as good of a profit margin on them versus Yamaha or because he just didn't have one in stock. He actually told me that they never had the ZED 12FX, just the ZED 14 so perhaps he didn't want to deal with placing an order for one.

Thanks guys for checking on that for me. It's nice to know some people with connections.

Well, as far as I know Guitar Center will price match at least Musician's Friend, because they are one happy family. I assume GC will do their best to compete with just about any advertised price from a reputable authorized equipment dealer, online or not.

The problem with retail shopping is 95% of their sales are going to be to that guy who is buying a PA for his garage band that makes $300 a night doing bars a few times a month. So they have a few things that cost maybe $1000 and they want to push the brands people recognize from other product lines, like Yamaha because they also make speakers and drums and guitars and crap. The garage band would probably buy a Yamaha over Soundcraft or Midas even if they cost the same because they are more familiar with Yamaha. I think this is why people still pay for Patron tequilla when they are 7 shots into the night even though you could serve them watered-down gasoline and they probably couldn't taste the difference.

Also, a Harman (Crown/Soundcraft/etc) rep recently made a good point to me, that if you buy locally, spend some money there, and get to know a couple of salesmen, you might eventually get some referrals from them. Or at minimum, you can say to your customer someday, "yeah, I have professional equipment; I buy it from Don Johnson at Guitar Center," and maybe they'll go, oh yeah, I went there to try to rent my own DJ rig and they suggested it would be cheaper and easier to hire someone.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Why don't we just say that it demonstrates self confidence.

My sources tell me that the profit margin is similar but did mention that A&H was a little harder to do business with, which suggests that perhaps they aren't as liberal with floor plans as some others might be. It would bother me to think that the salesman would resort to telling you story's about false reliability claims just to sell you something he had in stock. The Sales manager for Allen Heath North America seemed a little interested also.

I don't look at GC as a local store. I look at them as the national chain store that drove the locally owned and knowledgeable music stores out of business and now have total control of the area. I have yet to find anyone there that I would consider to be knowledgeable in sound reinforcement and probably only work there because GC called them before Dairy Queen did. I do most of my business with Production Companies. Most of them are not only Authorized dealers for most of your quality brands but obviously extremely knowledgeable as it is what they do for a living. Also, as their primary function isn't selling gear they are more than willing to cut some real good deals. Last but not least, when a Production Company gives you referrals, it's not going to be for the grand opening of little Timmy's lemonade stand.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Well, I guess I didn't mean to say Guitar Center is the same as Mom's Music (that is the real name of the local place I like here) but as far as business/networking purposes, it is retail. If Wal-Mart starts carrying Harman products and they have a salesman there who might refer business to me, I will buy it from Wal-Mart; and I am not afraid to admit it.

I know a number of local sound/production people who are dealers for this or that, and it isn't doing me any good to do business with them because they all have a kid they want to get into business, or only want to farm out the jobs that they don't want for a good reason. I guess your experience has been better than mine; but I am not going to buy gear from a friendly competitor who might send me an occasional job they just don't want when I can deal with an equipment vendor. They aren't making much money on it, I am not saving any, and even if my purchasing increases their volume with Harman 100% next year, it still doesn't make them a bigger account than they already were. Not when you are me just trying to spend what you make.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I don't mind supporting a local dealer but I almost always find that I know more about the products I'm looking for than they do when I enter the store. Why should I pay more at a local store when the dealer doesn't provide any value add for me. I don't think I'm going to be getting any referrals for wedding gigs at a GC or even my local shop (Skip's Music). I would rather get clients via word of mouth anyway.

Perhaps I'm just not blessed with any decent local dealers in my area. It's basically Skip's (close by) or GC about 30 minutes away.

I don't appreciate the fact that the salesman immediately started pushing another product when I specifically asked about the ZED-12FX. I don't mind a sales person offering advice or making recommendations but if I want brand x they should have some valid reasons for suggesting brand y. Obviously in this case you guys have all but confirmed that the salesman was lying about the many returns of ZED mixers.

I feel your pain Doc, it was the reason that helped me discover the world of production companies. No more 9 to 5er's that are in it for the few bucks they make, it is very refreshing dealing and talking to people that actually do sound reinforcement because they love it.

Sorry Doc, I must beg your indulgence for a minute I don't mean to Hijack your post, but I need to clarify something with Jeff.

When I refer to Production Companies, I mean "BIG" Production Companies, doing the national acts. I on the other hand have a small to medium sized Production Company, far from being able to fulfill the Riders of most of those acts. What I can do is middle size and regional acts which they aren't interested in but are lucrative enough for me and the Riders are a little easier to live with. My point is this, these company's are local, they just aren't primarily retail. They don't do what I do so they aren't my competition. I'm in a win win situation, I get great gear at a good price, great advice when needed, business sent my way and last but not least, they quite often need extra help which gives me more opportunities to make money, learn, make connections and see some good acts while I'm at it, and here's just a little more icing on the cake. Recently I had to do a very large venue and I was concerned that my two LS800P's and two U15P's might not be enough. One of these "BIG" production company's duplicated what I already had, bringing my total to 9,600 watts, drove it 60 miles to me, helped with the setup, sent their main sound engineer ( the same guy that was doing FOH for Linkin Park just a few days before) incase I had any questions, let me use the gear for two days, came back and got it and charged me nothing. Now if that's competition I'll take all I can get.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Are the Mackie mixers that bad? I'm looking at some deals on the smaller VLZ3s the 1202 and the 1402. They don't offer all the features of the A&H that's for sure but now that I have a pretty solid understanding of what I want and what I need I think they would work for me. I know there are no effects but I can add those in an external processor later if I decide I really want them. I know the cost may be a wash after buying a separate mixer and effects unit but I think it might work better for me that way.

So are the Mackie mixers decent? I know there are currently some manufacturing problems because of a meltdown with the factories in China but I have found some new and gently used Mackie mixers at very reasonable prices.

You will want FX for karaoke, so if that is your intended use for the system, go ahead and buy an FX processor if you get a mixer without on-board FX. Your singers will likely notice the dry vocals and be disappointed. I have several who ask for "more echo" or whatever once in a while, and I am happy to adjust to their preference, even if it is not how I think they sound best. Every home karaoke system has an echo/reverb knob, so your professional system should, too!

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I have done three Karaoke gigs so far and I am open to doing more. I have done them all dry with the exception of the custom EQ stuff in the Bose L1 system. I did have requests for "echo" so I know I need an effects processor. Since I don't really go out of my way to find Karaoke gigs I just figured I could wait a bit until I purchase an FX unit.

The Mackie's are alright, not my cup of tea but for Karaoke it should be fine. The supply issue is real and another matter as it apparently is disrupting sales of some items. One of my suppliers was just commenting a couple of days ago that he was very frustrated with Mackie and he actually had to make a sizable refund for a customer because they hadn't filled his order. That's about all I know about it.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

It sounds like they had contracted out their manufacturing to some factory in China and something bad went down, like the factory went out of business. Now, no new products are being produced so items are on back order everywhere. If they don't get things up and running soon, it could be really bad news for Mackie. They must be hemorrhaging money right now since new products are not of the shelves to be sold they are not bringing in any revenue. Here is a link to an article that claims they should be getting things up and running again as we speak. Link

I wonder how long it is really going to take to get things back to normal for them. If the A&H is overhill for you there is always the reliable Yamaha option, or even Carvin might be worth a look for you, good ole American made.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

The A&H is the best choice but it's a bit bigger than I want. The compact Yamaha mixers don't offer the features I want. You have to jump up to something like their 12 channel to get the same features.