Karaoke Forums

Ok, so as NOT to hijack other threads, but i'm sitting here reading some of the other thoughts on other issues. And it just occurd to me, what is considered a small crowd for one show, is a large crowd for another. I realize that the size and capacity of the venue itself really is the determining factor, but I was thinking, when does a show become too "small" to be profitable for the bar?

I know the bottom line is the z-tape totals, not the amount of singers or patrons. Water drinkers don't add to the bottom line, but they DO add to the show itself, if they participate. Not to mention the designated drivers, who also might be water drinkers. So, considering an average mix of drinkers/non-drinkers, how many people attending (not necessarily participating in karaoke) does it take to make it worth while for the bar/venue to be profitable? Thats what its all about really, isn't it?

Scott

Even if you don't show a significant profit for every night, there is something known as "spreading the overhead". If you pay the bartender's salary, offset the cost of the karaoke host, and put a few dollars towards insurance and roof you have kind of made money because you haven't lost it.

Then if you have an occasional big night, you are doing well.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

No, I realize the occasional "bad night" will happen. What i'm really asking is ,,as an average, how many people? I believe the bottom line is the totals at the register is what is important. Just using this as an example...the host costs 150 dollars, the bartenders pay, lets say is 7 dollars per hour, six hours,,,thats 42 dollars, maybe a door person? 35 dollars? maybe,,,drink costs, ???? lights??? insurance??? other non seen expenses???,,,Ok, with that, lets say the bar only does 400 dollars in a night, but has 20 people,,,that averages 20 dollars per person. And out of that, the owner has to pay all mentioned expenses,,,,is that worth it??? Considering if they didn't have to pay for a karaoke show? How much would the zee tape show then?

I know, it depends on different things, i'm just talking "averagaes"

This is exactly it. The venue must create a following itself for its other nights. Get people in the door for one thing, and perhaps those same folks might return for other events.... be it Nascar or Football, Dart night, whatever. If the bar pulls in $400 or more, for a karaoke night that is usually a win. Thus, a nice mix of singers and watchers will get you there... even if you don't have a lot of singers but the bar is full that will still be a win as far as the bar is concerned.

The important thing is that people have a good time and want to come back (with friends) . That sets you up for big nights when it somebody's birthday, or a holiday, anniversary, etc.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Most bars make their (Real) money on Friday and Saturday nights.

The other nights can "help" with the take but often the bar are loosing money if it relies on midweek (plus possibly sunday) nights alone.

But the bars know that many of their regular (weekend) patrons may occasionally go out midweek. If the bar closes mid week these people might get in the habit of going to other bars on the weekend as well if they cant go there midweek.

So what many bars are relying on midweek is to make a tolerable showing, but not really be the breadwinner nights of the week. Sure some bars may be equally busy all nights, but that is a minority. Other bars may occasionally be the exception where a weeknight may be thier busy night if they fill a special niche in the market like karaoke.

Special weekday events like musical acts or other special events can be exceptions and lead to busy weekdays, but that should not be compared to the expectations for a weekly show.

That said, they still need to make enough money to pay the bartender and the KJ. That depends a lot on the local cost of living and the price of drinks and the costs of the KJ. A larger bar that runs with 2 or more bartenders, waiters, doormen etc of course would need a much larger crowd.

My measure of succes is to go to the sme bar on other weeknights that do not have karaoke or special events, and count the number of people there. If the karaoke is not adding at least 10-15 people to the bar crowd on the nights it is active, then it is probably not really worth it to the bar. Sometimes this is hard to tell in bars that have some sort of special activity every weeknight.

So a bar that normally has 25 people but 15 on karaoke nights is failing, but one that usually just has 5 on other nights but 25 for karaoke is doing well with the karaoke.

Most bars make their (Real) money on Friday and Saturday nights.

The other nights can "help" with the take but often the bar are loosing money if it relies on midweek (plus possibly sunday) nights alone.

But the bars know that many of their regular (weekend) patrons may occasionally go out midweek. If the bar closes mid week these people might get in the habit of going to other bars on the weekend as well if they cant go there midweek.

So what many bars are relying on midweek is to make a tolerable showing, but not really be the breadwinner nights of the week. Sure some bars may be equally busy all nights, but that is a minority. Other bars may occasionally be the exception where a weeknight may be thier busy night if they fill a special niche in the market like karaoke.

Special weekday events like musical acts or other special events can be exceptions and lead to busy weekdays, but that should not be compared to the expectations for a weekly show.

That said, they still need to make enough money to pay the bartender and the KJ. That depends a lot on the local cost of living and the price of drinks and the costs of the KJ. A larger bar that runs with 2 or more bartenders, waiters, doormen etc of course would need a much larger crowd.

My measure of succes is to go to the sme bar on other weeknights that do not have karaoke or special events, and count the number of people there. If the karaoke is not adding at least 10-15 people to the bar crowd on the nights it is active, then it is probably not really worth it to the bar. Sometimes this is hard to tell in bars that have some sort of special activity every weeknight.

So a bar that normally has 25 people but 15 on karaoke nights is failing, but one that usually just has 5 on other nights but 25 for karaoke is doing well with the karaoke.

What is an acceptible crowd - any crowd that puts the money in till! I would say for our room 15 singers avg is enough as those singers also bring in people with them typically.

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Part of the reason I ask, is because of the subject of one of my other threads..my friday is show is dying. One of the posts on here in another thread said, that 15-20 people in his gig, would be busy, where that many in another gig, would seem "dead". Thats the issue here, my friday show lately has only had on average the last 4 weeks, only 25-30 people. It used to draw a hundred or more on some nights, averaging around 85. I am going to talk to the owner this week on this issue and find out his stance. I believe, that yes, in other bars 25-30 people is worth the bars time, but not in this case. All of my other shows, and all of them are much smaller clubs, do much better in people count. The bottom line is the total on the z-tape. And I believe that if we as hosts cant at least make our nights profitable, no matter what night of the week, why on earth should the owner keep us around. We are lying to ourselves into really thinking that they should keep us around.

My goal as a host is the success of the bar, not just MY success. If the bar is successful, then WE are successful, and not the other way around. Yes, I agree to a point, that the bars need to keep patrons around on "off" nights, but karaoke CAN AND SHOULD be profitable. Its not a dart tournement, its not poker night, its ENTERTAINMENT. For whatever reason that my friday has died, (and i'm not 100% sure why) I believe its below the point of profitability.

Now as far as what is an acceptable crowd? I know there isn't a "magic" number, but if paying customers average, lets say, 20 dollars a night in purhases, then in my opinion, that it would take 20 paying customers, just to break even. And that doesn't count the water drinkers. The water drinkers, again in my opinion, are still important to the overall "vibe" of the show. In other words,,the more the merrier. And they can in most cases add to the excitement needed at a show. But they don't pay the bills, and that is what counts. Right?

Times are hard right now, people aren't going out as freely as they have in the past. I know my shows are down in attendance as well, but it's not due to the show, but people just aren't going out as much. Unemployment is highest right now than ever.
15-20 people in the bar itself is a dead night in our house. 15-20 singers is generally a good night as those singers will typically bring in 1-5 people on avg per person, so the actual head count of the place will be anywhere from 30-100 people.
Not getting into the rediculous water drinker issue, but yes there is often times these people will either bring in people or keep people around that might not have stayed as long and get another drink while waiting for this singer to sing. They themselves may not actually pay the bill, but can contribute indirectly.

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In a good business model no matter what night of the week entertainment should not cost more than 10%

So simply add a zero on to what you get paid to ensure survival. My Tuesday Karaoke sales Tuesday are around $2300. Wednesday $2100 and Sunday $1800.

For a bar to be profitable it needs to be in the 10% to 15% range for entertainment.

Liquor cost is about 30%
Cost of Utilities etc. 15%
Labor 10%
Overhead Other Fees etc. 10%

With Entertainment that gives the owner 25% to make the morgage and profit.

liquiddye,

With a formula like that, most of us would be out of work. In theory, it would be nice to be able to be that profitable, but in reality, most places aren't.

Out of curiosity I kept track every hour of how many singer we had compared to everyone in the bar at the time, how many people in the karaoke section alone & how many in the bar overall, the results went:

9:00 10 people in the bar - 5 in the karaoke section - 6 karaoke singers.
10:00 38 people in the bar - 35 in the karaoke section - 15 singers
11:00 49 people in the bar - 47 in the karaoke section - 21 singers
12:00 50 people in the bar - 49 in the karaoke section - 25 singers
1:00 48 people in the bar - 44 in the karaoke section - 26 singers

Now I know for fact there were at least 6 people drinking water/soda all night (start to finish) - 3 that were singers, the bar Z was $1575! One bar tab I know for sure ( I saw it) was $250 with a 4 person table (including a water drinker that sang) & they were there from 11-1.

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Lonnie,

Good information! That averages about $31.50 per person, including water drinkers. Decent crowd too, but the singer to non-singer ratio is just a bit high (just my opinions, a 2:1 non-singer/singer is better). Ok, let's say that's avergage though, if a places is only drawing, let's say, 20 people, then the z-tape is only around $630. Can a bar justify that as "profitable" or at very least, break even? That's what i'm dealing with at my friday show. But I actually doubt, the totals are even that high these days. Again, just my opinion, the totals at the register is not our concern as hosts, but if the bar can't make money from us, why are we there?

If the bar's z-tape is $630 and the KJ is getting paid $150, you'd have to compare that $480 difference (plus cost of power to run the equipment) to the take the bar would normally have if there were no karaoke. That is, if the bar would have a z-tape of $480 on the same night if there were no karaoke, then the bar isn't making anything out of having karaoke, only the KJ is.

In other words, if there wasn't karaoke, the bar would still be open and still have it's overheads (bar staff, running costs, etc). Therefore, karaoke would be viable only if it can increase the z-tape of a non-karaoke night by at least as much as the cost the karaoke incurs.

You have to figure in a lot more than just KJ fee of $150 because of liquor costs and other things.

I know that in my place for karaoke they add three extra employees - a bartender, a server, and someone at the door. Non-karaoke nights one person does it all. Add my fee and product costs to that, and they need an additional $650 over a normal night to break even.

Lonnie that wasn't last night was it? If it was, that was quits a Monday!

... he's still sleeping it off.

Murrlyn,

The bar would actually have to increase MORE than the karaoke host is costing. You have to figure in cost of the extra drinks sold, and any extra staff that might have been added. Also, if the bar had 20 people with karaoke, and using the 2:1 ratio, the customer count would only be 13. Assuming they each spent the average amount of $31.50, the zee tape would only be $409. But then again, thats just an assumption.

I'm really not expecting to find a "magic" number of customers, but some idea would be good. This friday gig of mine used to be a terrific show, now it kinda feels like nobody wants to be there. If the bar is only getting 25-30 people now with karaoke, maybe 8-10 singers included, that means if there were NO karaoke, the bar would be better off without the added expense of karaoke. Does anyone agree?

What is acceptable to WHOM?
The KJ ?
The Bartender?
The Owner?
Too many variables and each venues is unique.

In short --If you have a midweek show -- The owner is probably hoping to cover expenses and make a modest profit. If you have a WEEKEND show the owner is looking to bring in the majority of profit. They don't care if its SINGERS or NON SINGERS as long as people are having a good time and spending enough money.
Then you have BAR profit and or FOOD profit if the venue serves food in the bar.

The best thing is to sit down with your BOSS and inquire what they are expecting from your SHOW !!!

What kind of show do you run ?
100% Karaoke ?
50/50 Dj and Karaoke

jamkaraoke,,

It's primarily karaoke, but if there are enough people who want to dance, i will throw in a dance set in the middle, and always one at the end. Its a friday show, so I think it should be packed, but thats not the case anymore. I am looking for answers, honestly, but at the same time need to understand all the little nuances that are associated with running a club. I get the idea for the most part, but am trying to compile information so when i actually do have a sit-down with the boss, we can both be prepared.

Yes that was last night. And actually more singers than normal, but less overall heads. Our avg singers usually run about 10-15 on Mondays.

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