Karaoke Forums

Besides the pain in the (@$%&#!) music updates and poor customer support, I love the CAVS JB-199. I specifically went this route for copyright reasons (all music is encripted and cannot be duplicated). Better than a laptop IMHO. I was referring to the DJ jig used for karaoke.

Great help guys, any suggestions for a LIVE mixer?

And I do read all other posts to save on confusuon.

A simplified reply would be in order of my personal preference (favorite first) and not knowing how many channels you need or if you want USB or FX abilities.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=580319
http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMMG124CX
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACPROFX12

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Those look like great choices, but I prefer a rack mount setup for easier setup. What are your thoughts on a straight karaoke mixer? One example: VOCOPRO KJ-7808RV-N KARAOKE/DJ/KJ DIGITAL VIDEO MIXER

http://cgi.ebay.com/VOCOPRO-KJ-7808RV-N ... 1|294%3A50

Unspeakable.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Yes, I know that most mixers labeled "karaoke" are worthless crap. But the one I linked looks like a decent mixer?

The A & H Zed 12fx can also be mounted you just need the rack mounts for it .

http://www.thomann.de/gb/allenheath_zed14rackkit.htm
thats one site ,you can get it for about £40 pound not sure at other parts of the world
the zed 14 is the same ones as for the zed12fx.
not sure on the other mixers but unless they are really large mixers most will rack fit.
this is the cheapest ive found for the zed 12/14 kit in the uk ,which is where i am if anyone finds anythinf cheaper please let me know as i need a set for mine ,but still not getting my rack case until after the 17th of april so plenty time to shop around.

I started this post off with a lot of explanation and options, and eventually hit erase and decided to try being less verbose.

You need a live mixer, compression, a change to how you use the Feedback Destroyer (which is probably 50% of your problem right now), and you need to tell your buddy the "sound guy" not to touch your EQ ever again, because he does not know how to use a semi-parametric EQ, which means he doesn't know much at all about what the equipment actually does. I bet he knows how to hook it up, though.

Live Mixer: whatever you prefer that is marketed for "live sound" is probably going to work better than your DJ mixer. You will get people saying A&H, Behringer, Midas, Soundcraft, Yamaha, whatever. Just pick something you like that doesn't cost a whole lot and hopefully has some on-board FX and monitor sends, because bells and whistles really do get used here. I like the Behringer SL2442FX (or newer SX2442FX) as a small console-format mixer, because it has two FX units on-board and two pre/post switchable aux sends for monitors or additional out-board FX. If you want something smaller, get a Eurorack or Xenyx that is small enough to go into a pop-up rack. You can spend a little more money on Yamaha or a bunch more on Soundcraft, but when it comes down to it, karaoke singers and indeed bar bands will never notice the difference.

On to the pre-amp. Don't bother using that, it's a boutique thing meant for podcasters or people who want to hook their instrument/vocal mic into a power amp or line mixer because they don't have mic pre-amps available otherwise.

ART makes great stuff. If you really want a boutique pre-amp, buy a VoiceChannel. It has compression and a better semi-parametric EQ than you will find in most channel strips or cheap out-board dynamics processors. It also has a de-esser, which is essentially a bandwidth-limited compressor to help you get rid of breath noises that your mics pick up from vocalists. Windscreens work too. I'm not saying buy the VoiceChannel, but if you must be a fancy schmancy boutique guy, the ART VoiceChannel is extremely good for the price. It's also aimed more at installed / studio applications than touring, so take good care of it.

Compression, I mention that above briefly. Basically, when you watch those singers on American Idol and they are screaming into the mic one moment, and softly singing the next, yet they always sound like they are at a similar volume, that is an extreme use of compression that has become popular for recording. It is also useful for live performances, and helps karaoke singers a ton, but don't go to the same extreme that the American Idol people do.

Get one channel of compression for every mic input. This will allow your singers to hit tough notes or get that rough, rock star sound without blowing the audience away with a ton of volume when they are screaming into the mic. Play with it at home until you are familiar with the use of the various knobs. Hook it up to the insert I/O jack of your vocal channels via an appropriate insert patch cable, or put it between your boutique pre-amp and the line-level channel input of your mixer.

FX, I assume you know how to adjust the wet/dry mix of your post-FX signal in the current signal chain. If not, this is also why you don't like your current sound! If you want to use that out-board FX device instead of using one built into a mixer, then hook the FX input to an aux send on your new live mixer, and run the FX output into a channel strip or "FX return." Now set the FX box on 100% wet, and use the channel strip fader or FX return pot to adjust as desired. You still have dry signal on the original vocal channel, and you can boost the gain to the FX device if you want to drown out the dry signal with FX output, by using the aux send control on the channel strip. Be sure the FX box doesn't clip; digital clipping sounds aweful.

Okay, now you have compression and FX. Let's move on to the Feedback Destroyer. That thing, in its current place in the signal chain, is probably screwing up your sound. It basically guesses that narrow-band peaks are feedback, and then it eliminates them by creating a filter in its digital parametric EQ. Except it is just guessing, and it gets it wrong a lot with instruments and sometimes vocalists too, especially screamers. Move the Feedback Destroyer to the main insert I/O jacks of your mixer (in case you want to unplug it in a hurry) or put it between the main output of the mixer and your power amp inputs. The compression you are applying to your mics will reduce false positives. It'll also make it a little tougher for it to pick up actual feedback, but as I recall, most of the Behringer (guessing this is your brand) Feedback Destoyers have a one-shot / panic button you can use if needed. Ultimately, you will get rid of the Feedback Destroyer in favor of better graphic or parametric EQ one day. Also, reset the Feedback Destroyer once in a while and see if your sound is better afterwards.

To revisit the issue of that sound guy, anyone who just turns back all the channel strip EQ knobs on a mixer and thinks that is helpful is completely, utterly clueless. Here is what that does: it creates unnatural cuts or boost in the signal due to gaps or interaction between the EQ bands, depending on where the mid-band is swept and the Q & bandwidth of each band. This is really dumb. If you ever have all three or four bands turned the same direction, it's okay to do this once in a while because you are trying to make adjustments quickly in a live setting .. but never do that routinely. Instead, turn one knob back to unity gain, and adjust the others in proportion to how much you changed that knob. Then adjust the channel fader or pre-amp gain.

As far as your amps and speakers go, I honestly paid very little attention to what you posted about them, and the other replies as they related to those items. You have other stuff to fix first. Once you do, you'll probably find you don't need bigger speakers or amps.

I guess I'm not good at limiting the verbosity of my posts!

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Lots of great info guys! The Behringer SL2442FX listed above looks like overkill to me. I'm thinking of going with either the Yamaha or the Mackie mentioned earlier. I'm hoping this solves a lot of issues! looking forward to building a second system, it will just take time due to the cost of doing a great system.

All right, I don't want to hijack this thread but I came here tonight to talk about the UCA202 so I will start a new topic.

My wireless mics are "Hot" when I run them straight to the board, even when the gain on the receiver is turned all the way down. I was having a problem with gain structure as my mics were pulled *way* down to -20dB or so on the board. I was fortunate to have one of our sound designers suggest I try the attenuation pads that we use for recording gun fire (we make games) and see if that squared away.

Worked like a charm and I now have nice clear mics and plenty of room to play with the gain based on singer.

These are the ones I use:Audio Technica AT8202 In-Line Attenuator Mic Pad

I like the ability to select the attenuation, -10, -20, or -30dB. Works very well for my purposes and allowed me to get a good gain structure that I can work with much better.

Here is a list from of what is available from Sweetwater: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search. ... +pad&go=Go!

^^^ Interesting. Where do you plug these into your system for wireless mics? Directly to your mixer lines or out from your wireless receiver? This is definitely worth a try. I may buy one, and if it works add the second to my other wireless mic.

When I first got them I simply ran them into the board so I could play with them easily. After they proved their worth I moved them to the other side of the cable, receiver output, with the correct settings. They're nice and invisible in my stack now and do the work I need them to do.

Please do check back in with us after you have the console, there are other issues you need to straighten out. For instance you have a bunch of processors all linked in series. Personally I think that is your biggest problem. You're gain structure is probably an absolute mess going from one to the next so talk to the folks here to get ideas on how to use those items correctly. The Mackie and Yamaha manuals give you a pretty good start in their discussion of Insert and Aux Send usage, but there are some tricks that they don't mention that the folks here can help you with.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Well, one bar I am gigging at has a house system that involves powered mackie speakers and a mackie live sound mixer. I plugged into it and OMG is the sound a whole lot better on the mics! I never would have guessed that my mixer was the main problem. I love this forum! Will be getting a new mixer in about a month and hopefully fix the issue once and for all. Thanks for the help guys!!!

Oh, and in reply to the previous post - my mics are plugged directly into the mixer and I'm only using the on board effects. No mic pre-amps or effects in the loop. No feedback destroyer (useless piece of equipment from what I've found) When I get my board, I will run my effects processor thru the effects loop and call it good.

absolute complete over priced junk..and thats as nice as i can be about it. really the only name i see as worse than the brand you have (Be*****r) is what you are looking at (VO****O). I would look at the mackie ProEFX 8 or 12. the 8 sells for $225 and its worth every penny. there are some nice models from Yamaha also that are rack mountable. A live or studio style mixer is much better than any made for karaoke mixer. the effects are always of a better quality as well as the preamps. the prices are usually less than a "karaoke" mixer and it can be used for a band, Karaoke , or dj. and do any of the three well.

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the voices arent real, but they have some good ideas

^^^ It's funny that you mention that mixer, because that is EXACTLY what I am running into at the one gig with the house system! Works quite nicely.

my only complaint on the mackie PRO EFX units is lack of compression. ive gone back to my powered unit for ease of use. it was a pain running a compressor inline on all 4 mics. only two of the mic preamps have inserts and i liked it better keeping all the same. I also didn't care for hauling around the big power amp either. its a great unit you can run a limiter in the output path also just to protect your speakers. I did that for a couple shows and it worked well enough i guess.

My PRO EFX will most likely get traded in on a larger mixer. I may also use it for bands as a sub mixer for vocals only as it has decent efects and preamps.

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the voices arent real, but they have some good ideas

I don't believe in the Yamaha-style, one-knob compression. Okay for karaoke maybe, but for live music where you want a lot of flexibility, forget about it. IMO the only good built-in compression is the stuff in digital consoles. Too bad the Harman rep would not give me 80% off on a Si2!

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

For karaoke - especially with those that have no experience with a compressor the built in is better than nothing. Live is a different scenerio altogether - not what most are talking here.

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