Karaoke Forums

I desperately need your opinions on this.

The bar owner called me over the other night while I was working. This means I have maybe 3 whole minutes to have a conversation with him before I have to put up the next singer. This conversation takes place in front of several regulars. Bad business !
If I would have known the subject matter before hand I would have told him to call me so we can discuss it.

He says BMI is after us to pay them. We had a short discussion about this several months ago and I thought by now he would have paid them.

He says if we don't pay them they are threatening to sue. I told him that I pay for my karaoke discs and therefore I am legal. I don't play DJ music, so this has nothing to do with me. He is responsible to pay for the entertainment license and BMI for the jukebox, bands and karaoke for the bar. He says the jukebox vender pays BMI, so he doesn't have too. And he only has bands a few times a yr, so he thinks they'll never know. I'm mainly his only entertaiment and it is cheaper if I pay it and not him.

I again I told him this is not my responsibilty and they are not after me. I have never been approached by anyone, but him about this matter. I know BMI has come in several times to talk to him about paying. They told him they know I'm there they've seen me doing karaoke.

Then he says I've misunderstood him that he was saying there are 2 ways to handle this and it is cheaper if I pay it not him. That I will be able to do karaoke any where I want and be covered, if I pay it. The only place I do karaoke is there. I stopped taking on extra gigs because it was to much. Then he says when the paperwork comes in he'll contact me. I had to run and put up the next singer, so it was left at that.

Is this in any way my problem? Can they come after me for anything?

I don't think he'd fire me and take on a new KJ because he'd still have the same problem. Plus he would loose my following. Not bragging - It is a loyal crowd I've built over several yrs of KJing. He knows they will leave if I leave.

He is very stubborn and I know this is going to be a heated subject when we talk about it. I'm dreading the confrontation and want to make sure I know what I'm talking about when I speak with him, so any information you all can give me the better.

Thank you

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

dont feel bad Ive had this happen to me and then they decided not to do karaoke and have to pay a $2,000 fee to have entertainment..they asked if i would be willing to split the cost and I said no..Im not paying to have entertainment brought in.....if they want it they can pay for it

This makes it sound like he is angling to pay them through you in order to pay a reduced amount. IE: It's his money...but you pay the bill.

Still shady though.

On the plus side, if he wants to get the license through you and pay for it completely, then you have the advantage.

If he brings someone else in, they won't be covered, so he will likely do whatever it takes to keep you.

No he made it pretty clear he wants me to pay.

But if he does offer to pay for me I'd have to get the money from him every year which I don't trust he'd do. Once they have my name I'm in fear that I'd be on their radar for ever. I'd be worried that I'd have other organizations asking me for money too. I know BMI isn't the only one. Of course I am no expert on this.

I mainly need to know if I stand my ground on this saying I'm not paying for it will BMI come after me in any way? Like I said before they have never approached me.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Oooh good point. I don't know how this whole BMI thing works. I would be paying for a license? and what do they base the fee on? Does everyone pay a certain amount?

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Bab's

There is no provision with BMI or ASCAP for you to pay them directly as an entertainer. It is the venue that is responsible. They are the only ones that can pay the fee.

They want revenue from each and every venue for their entertainment. The fees are based upon how many nights per month the venue offers entertainment and also has to do with size and volume of bar patrons.

Your bar owner is trying to get you to pay and that is not an option BMI allows.


This issue has nothing to do with you and has everything to do with the bar. If I'm not mistaken he is also having bands play there as well. This is his responsibility plain and simple. You are not liable for entertaining there. He will be sued and taken to court if he does not pay the fees...that is for certain as those guys will not play games with him. You are not in the liability loop.

Stand your ground!!

This guy knows he is responsible for paying the fees, and he is hoping you will buckle under and pay them for fear that you will lose your gig. The only way to lose your gig is for him to fire you. That's not gonna happen now is it....you have been there far too long and bring in a solid crowd.

The only way you could pay for them is to give him the money and he pays it. BMI will not accept money from you.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Okay I called BMI. Hee hee

They do not license Karaoke businesses. It is solely the bars responsibility to pay.

Jukebox venders (the owner of the jukebox) is responsible for paying JLO for licensing. As long as admission is not charged at the venue the venue owner is not responsible for paying for jukebox licensing. That's why he isn't paying for that.

If he is having bands he needs to be paying BMI. So regardless of me being there he should have it anyway.

I am so angry right now.

It's like me asking to pay for the CDGs I buy because they'll come after him for copyright infringement otherwise. He has tried to scare me into paying because BMI is going to sue me. Unbelievable. He must think I'm a dumb girl he can swindle.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Thanks Flipper - I didn't see your post before I posted. It just makes me feel that much better though.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Babs:
This is in NO WAY your responsibility. HE is the one who has to pay, not you.
I had the same issue recently and told the venue owner that I will NOT pay his fees, no matter what. He has to pay anyways, whether it's the jukebox, bands, or even the radio he plays. Here in Canada, the karaoke portion of the bill amounts to roughly $22 per year. Even as cheap as that, I refuse to pay what are HIS operating costs, just on principle alone. You could approch him with this idea, which is what I was going to do had he not suddenly dropped it: You will pay half his fees if he pays for printing up new books, buying new mics and cords, and your new discs for the year. Now who gets the short end of the stick there? Try and make him see those fees are that the cost of doing business, just as your expenses (books, mics, etc) are the cost of doing YOUR business. He should know that by know anyways. It appears that he's just another slimy owner trying to make someone else pay for his expenses.
Even if he cancels karaoke at this point, he WILL have to pay. He's already had it for this long into the year and BMI won't drop it.

And they will not approach you. They gave up on having the entertainment (bands/dj/karaoke/etc.) pay the fees long ago. It is solefly the responsibility of the bar & no one else. As I have been explained by ASCAP that the dj cannot get the license to cover the place, it has to be covered by the venue or the host of the show (not as in hosting karaoke, as in the person hiring the entertainment) - if it's private mostly like in commercial settings, but private functions.
Yes if they have bands they should have been paying all along unless the bands are original music only & no covers. He's supposed to pay even if he just has TV's in the place & nothing else.

If he wants you to pay, go ahead & do it, but then figure out what it would break down to weekly, fill out the forms for the club (not putting your name anywhere on it), have him sign it, double the weekly cost & add it to your weekly pay, have him sign a contract that you will be paid your the fee weekly even if karaoke ceases before the BMI contract is up. He won't do it, but something you could throw in his face!

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And Babs if you check BMI again I think you'll find the licence is non-transferable, ie covering you from venue to venue, as each venue is different in size and entertainment they have. He's being cheap. Who's to say after you pay it, he gets someone else in.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

That would need to go into the contract as well that she would still continue to collect each week.

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Oh wow!! My friend went through this a few years ago with his karaoke show. He just said, well, I can put you in touch with my attorney (that happened to be his wife at the time). Gotta watch those bar owners.

hit him in his pocket book. make it cost him extra to have you do it . He'll decide that it's cheaper to pay it himself if what you charge him extra ends up costing him twice what he would have paid if he had just paid the fees himself.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Plus filing and book keeping fees.

Put a copy of your book on a CD. Hand it to the BMI guy and ask him to mark the ones that his company represents so that you can omit them. When he refuses have the owner throw him out.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Babs,

I am no longer much involved with posting, but because it's you asking the question I will provide some very useful input:

The following site should end all further discussions about who ASCAP BMI and SESAC represent and what their business objective is:

http://www.events-in-music.com/ascap-vs-bmi-vs-sesac.html CORRECTED @ 2:15 AM 5/05/09

How ASCAP, for example, calculates royalties for copyright owners:
http://www.ascap.com/about/payment/royalties.html

Who pays licensing fees to ASCAP
http://www.ascap.com/licensing/about.html

Go here to determine just how absurd the last suggestion is about eliminating BMI from your songbook. Particularly check out "Willie Nelson" when you go to the following site.
http://www.bmi.com/

Babs, be so ever careful when it comes to any legal or financial info you glean from this forum!!!!

After reading the information and links it is quite clear that the venue is always responsible for paying the fees....NOT the entertainer.

One thing I have learned about these organizations is that they will have their day in court with the Venue owner and they will win. They are extremely aggressive here in our part of the country.

Bar owners that choose to stay uninformed about these organizations can end up with a heap of trouble on their hands. The fees are not excessive in fact many times they are very reasonable.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

This has changed in the last couple of years. There is now an exception for bars below a certain square footage, and I think Babs' venue is covered by that.

He is still responsible for the karaoke and bands, of course. He won't get out of it.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.