Karaoke Forums

In an attempt to make known the potential consequences of singing freeloaders at karaoke shows, I have been accused of "whining". Actually, the typical respondents to my posts are the ones who are the "whiners", IMHO. And while I am not sure, I have some ideas about why my posts generate such strong responses.

Throughout my posts, I have never told anyone that they have a problem. I have never suggested that I needed advice from anyone on how to handle the problem; it wasn't mine to handle directly, I was solely a singer when my posts regarding freeloaders began.

And I shared with the forum that as a singer my response to the situation, eventually, was to take my money elsewhere! So, five freeloaders resulted in me and other paying customers leaving!

And for the last time, with no real expectation of getting a rational response, I ask why do so many of you condone and/or excuse the bad behavior of the freeloaders described in my discussions? I have continually ASKED this question, to no avail!

What I find most curious is why anyone should have any argument with me? Those who are desirous of arguing clearly ignore the reality that they are disagreeing with a statement that can't be debated ---- I HAVE WITNESSED FREELOADERS WHO FOLLOW THEIR FRUGAL ROUTINE WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT.... If you would like, you can call me a liar regarding that statement!

But what is there in THAT statement which you would like to debate?

Most hilarious are the justifications that have been provided as to why those non-spenders might be freeloading. The above referenced post, which started a new thread, UNEQUIVOCALLY states that Water drinkers don't add to the bottom line, but they DO add to the show itself, if they participate.

What does the poster mean when he states that water drinkers add to the show itself? And to me, "adding to the show" is not a valid criteria for overlooking freeloaders. And how does any one know that they add to the show when they participate? But, surely, they add to the rotation and the wait time of the paying singers!

And there have been many others who have made the similar claim that freeloaders can be beneficial! Meanwhile, it is my opinion, generally speaking, that freeloading singers actually detract from the experience of the other singers. And, for me, personally.... I'd rather that they not take up space in the rotation!

So, we clearly have those who ASSUME singing freeloaders are a benefit. And there are posters who will always provide hypothetical justifications for freeloaders and how they are (ALWAYS) a benefit.

But what if they are not ALWAYS a benefit? When do they become something less? And what do they "become" after they are no longer PERCEIVED as a benefit to the show and to the venue?

And who, in the first place, do they benefit? Do they benefit the Host, the other singers, the audience or the owner? And if they benefit the owner, by how much do they improve the bottom line? And how many freeloaders does it take to improve the bottom line? One? Two? Or does it require several freeloaders before the total impact of their activities take effect? And, is anyone really confident in the assertion that people NOT spending money improves the bottom line?

In short, it has seemingly become fashionable on this forum to justify freeloading, even those who admit they have no direct knowledge and/or experience with are experts regarding it!

It is also fashionable in this country to ascribe to those in the entertainment industry LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVE views of society. Some have even been labeled socialists!

And some would say that we are in the entertainment field! Hmmm?

Dennis Miller: the comedian, entertainer and talk-show host is a conservative in a community that is predominantly at odds with what he believes. And recently he adeptly expressed this personal truth!

"I don't mind helping the helpless, but I have no intention of helping the clueless".

Socialists share the wealth with both the hopeless and clueless. Unequal inputs into the communal pool derive EQUAL outputs for all participants!

I am a capitalist. I will help the helpless, but not the useless, clueless, malingerer, deadbeat, etc.

And to me the clueless are those who show up at karaoke and don't think they need to spend money, along with those who condone and or justify said behavior, in effect, facilitating it so that it continues to the detriment (NOT BENEFIT) of all.

And why are there KJ's who won't do anything about it?

Maybe the KJ is not really a capitalist at heart?
Maybe the KJ knows the freeloaders on a personal level and are embarrassed to do the "right thing" and point out their bad behavior?
Maybe the KJ lacks the confidence to lose an entertaining singer believing that the net effect on the show would be detrimental rather than positive if the singer were invited to leave?
Maybe the KJ freeloads and is embarrassed to "point a finger" at someone else?
Maybe the KJ is a known freeloader and can't "point the finger" elsewhere?
Maybe the KJ personally invited the singer to return, not realizing at first that the singer hasn't been spending much?

NOTE: Everyone who attended the show I described back two years ago, freeloaders and non-freeloaders alike, got a phone call from the KJ each week to make sure we were showing up!

I call 'em 'blue cuppers' 'cause they drink water and pepsi for the most part. At the same time, they can fill in a short rotation, fill out the bar on a slow night, they can get their buddies to buy 'em shots, and they can come back when they do have cash IF they're made to feel welcome when they're broke. It's never about the individual act of freeloading, but the relationship built over time.

A lot of people are out of work, some are just losers, and I'd rather when they found a $20 on the street that they spent it during one of my shows than at the place down the street.

Some dead horses keep coming back.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

We have only banned about 3 people from my show ever. Two were too drunk to stand and were being obnoxious, the third was broke, hassled everyone in the bar (all strangers) to buy him a drink or smoke. He also smelled bad and loudly insisted it was his turn to sing when he wanted (he did not understand the concept of a line).

This second person got several warnings and was not even banned untill the third night of such behavior that he was banned. Not buying the drinks was not the problem the problem was he was annoying all the other patrons. My show has a few water drinkers, and occasionally I am one of them (actually soda). A few people go to my show who drink alchohol rarely. That in itself is not enough to get someone to leave. In fact some of the water drinkers are at times the ones that bring a lot of other people into the bar.

The bars know this and the concept of a designated driver is good for their bottom line from the legal point of view. If someone gets a DUI (or worse) and the bar was known to discourage water drinkers they could be in for a lawsuit, one they may have a very hard time with.

Admittedly many water drinkers are loners, but the designated drivers are an important part of the system, they allow others to drink more (safely).

Eric you call yourself a capitalist but you refuse to acknowledge the most basic rule of business. Target a market that will give the room a chance to make a profit. I personally wouldn't call myself much of a businessman, but going into this three years ago there was one important thing on my mind. Gear the show towards a group that is underserved in the area and will support it.



Taken from your response to another thread. My sympathies to your problems, but in contrast my group thankfully does things that are fairly immune to the financial crisis: work at Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Chevron, Dominos... even the concept of home ownership is beyond their comprehension. They may not have the assets you do, but they all find a way to budget some of what they have towards recreation. If your show is geared towards people like you you're not going to make it!

Seriously!

Absolutely Gryf. I must have been out of my mind putting anything further up on this topic earlier.

There are pros and cons to the water drinker crowd. I don't think for the most part anyone likes a person coming in taking up their time and services and not contributing. I don't disagree with that.

I don't have a problem with non contributors in my bar because most who just drink water are buying food or putting money into the pool table. We are a Bar and Grill. People pay for bottled water in my bar and it isn't cheap.

My family came in for my birthday. My parents who are approaching their 80s don't drink, so they had soda. I would of course not kick them out because of that.

People have friends and family members come in to celebrate in their parties or maybe invite them there just to hear them sing. They don't always drink. I of course am not going to suggest they be kicked out of the bar because of this. They may be supporting one of my regulars who contribute greatly.

I think it is important to remember it depends on the circumstances.

I believe it is at the owners discretion on who is a free loader and take care of the situation. I have seen the bar owner approach one individual about this that sang. He would buy nothing not even water. He took up valuable singing time on busy nights, would not mingle with the rest of the crowd, and did not bring in anyone with him. This I consider a free loader and should be asked to please contribute or leave.

I see both sides of this situation. I ultimately don't find it my responsibilty though. I may bring it to the bar owners attention, but that is where it ends.

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Geez, you guys are STILL talking about this subject?

<----- Charmin: Still only drinking water/soda these days at the bar, but still being welcomed into my local places to sing.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

So bottom line is water drinkers aren't always a problem! As many have repeatidly pointed out over the one!

The end!

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Got a dollar says it ain't....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I haven't noticed that many water drinkers at the places I go to. I sure don't see why "cheap" singers or customers is a problem that the KJ has to solve. If a club owner is that concerned about his bottom line, why not have a minimum drink or food order policy? But maybe that would backfire and scare customers away.

Cha-Ching! We have a winner!

But still....

There's no difference if you walk into a bar and order a JACK and COKE or just a DIET COKE..(or Pepsi ) The major EXPECTATION is that you are going to ORDER SOMETHING ....SOMETHING THAT COST MONEY ..... After all it is a business ..not a free karaoke side show. And when you do walk in an buy something there is another expectation that the $2 you spent won't be the only $2 (in other words you can't sit there all night and sing for $2 )

Is it the KJ responsibility to POLICE this ...NO Should they be concerned if it is wide spread throught the rotation YES YES YES .

THIS HORSE IS SO BEATEN TO DEATH --YOU CAN MAKE HOTDOGS

Or glue!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

We simply tell the water drinkers that they can't sit in a booth if they're not ordering anything or at the least tippling the server because it pisses the waitresses off...


How long do you think they enjoy standing?

They don't.

They either order OR tip.. one or the other.

I don't drink but would never want to be thought of as a freeloader. I always try to go to bars that serve food so my wife and I can eat a meal and leave a good tip (very important). Waiters are glad to see me come back they run over to greet me and even move tables and chairs around to get me were I want to be.

Unfortunatly job reversals have kept me away so long that I am now forgotten but I would never want to be thought of a a freeloader.

Jim_N_TN

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Don't burn your old house before you build a new one.

This is easy.

Would you make the Cook responsible for policing the patrons when they come in during happy hour and eat the free chicken wings without buying a drink?

Wow. Good one.

But Still...

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Water drinkers are welcome at my show anytime. They contribute not only to the content of the show itself, but usually order food or non-alcoholic drinks instead. It all adds to the overall bottom line.

Charmin' Darlin' you can come and sing at my show anytime and I will buy you all the water you want if you will sing at my show.

Now let me have a swing at the poor ol' dead horse...

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott