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First of all thank you all so very much. I can't believe I actually lost sleep over this. I know the fight with him is not over and will be hard to make him understand, so I plan on printing out some information for him. I have not read through all the links yet posted for me, but I plan on reading them slowly word by word and highlighting them for him.

I think he has it in his head that I can license myself somehow because we did have a band that came in that did. Now why would a band do this if the bars are required to pay? I understand that if the band doesn't play their own music they are required to have it. Does this mean BMI and ASCAP expect bands and the venue to both have a license?

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Babs I believe that licenses are issued to venues not entertainers. I've never heard of a band needing an ASCAP or BMI license, and I've been in a few fairly large ones.

There is a single-event license that is frequently used by promoters for festivals and other one-time events.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

On the BMI website I found this statement:

Since it’s your business or organization that’s benefiting by the performance of music, you are responsible for ensuring your organization is properly licensed. This responsibility cannot be passed on to anyone else even if musicians hired are independent contractors.

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

ASCAP has this statement in it's FAQs:

12. Aren't musicians, entertainers and DJ's responsible for obtaining permission for music they perform?

Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.

In case anyone else comes across this problem I wanted to post these. They can be found on the BMI website and ASCAP website under FAQs. I have printed them out and will be presenting the info to him when he asks to speak about it again. Wish me luck !

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

...and right there are the facts. Any artist org. looking for money MUST name each and every track in question. This is why they get thrown out of court and have to pay restitution so often. They can never do it.

Which another reason why artists are sueing their own orgs for uncollected funds.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I'm gonna try something new with some of the bar owners here....

I'm fully aware of what the ASCAP fees are for a bar and BMI is similar so....

I'll offer to pay their ASCAP fees ON THE CONDITION that they sign a MINIMUM 1 year contract that coincides with their ASCAP license.... they will only be able to get out of it IF (and only if) they pay the prorated amount of the remaining license time PLUS a fee equal to 2 nights of karaoke. Otherwise, they'd have to wait until the end if the ASCAP license. A seperate, but equal arrangement on BMI since the two are seperate, but equal performance societies.

Logic:

The cost of 2 karaoke nights -provided they are not HUGE clubs, but "average" clubs - will cover the cost of the license anyway. If they bail early, you're still getting 2 nights pay PLUS the remaining cost of the license.

So let's "guesstimate" assuming the license is $328 and you charge $150/night.

Prorated license on a per month basis: $328/12= $27.50 per month

If they bar bails after 6 months, you'd get in return: 27.5 x 6 = $165 PLUS 2 nights of karaoke = $300 or a total of $465.00

Of that $465.00 you've spent $328 for the license originally, so you're gonna end up with $465 - $328 = $137.00

So, when you look at it, you've actually spent nothing on the license and ended up with what would be a $137 "cancellation fee."

If they wait until the end of the ASCAP contract, you're out and you've spent $328 but you've guaranteed your job and given up basically 2 weeks out of 52 as the cost of doing business that you can write off your business taxes as "licenses and permits."

It sounds like a great bargaining tool, but I would have a few concerns.

You can't license just yourself. You'd be licensing for the venue itself. After talking with BMI and ASCAP I've found they do not license KJs or DJs. That means it would be under their name and all other forms of copyright would need to be covered. If the bar is over 3500 sq ft and has TVs, if they have bands, and if the jukebox is not licensed by the vender, you'd be paying for those also. If they charge a cover charge all forms need to be covered regardless of sq ft and if the jukebox vender has a license. My other fear is ASCAP does not cover all copy righted material, so BMI may come knocking next. BMI wants to charge my venue $2000 for the yr.

Just food for thought.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Plus who wants to stick around in a place that doesn't want you? Man life's too short...

UPDATE:

I walk into work Wed and the owner is waiting for me. He wants to talk again. He starts in telling me how BMI is like the mob and they have been relentless calling every day hassling his bartenders, sending letters, and approaching him in the bar threatening him. He explains he doesn't curtail to threats.

I give him my paper work backing my stance on the situation and explain how he can't put off the fee on me. I really took him back knowing what I was talking about. He tried to act like he knew what he was talking about, but he obviously had no clue. When I explained I called and talked to them both and neither organization licenses KJs and DJs, EVER, he looked dumb founded.

He then tells me he has talked to his lawyer. I asked if it was a copyright lawyer. He says oh yeah this guy represents famous bands and producers. He says he doesn't have to pay at all. I then explain BMI does sue and they usually win. That he is better off at least paying one of the organizations, so if he does get sued he has at least one leg to stand on. Then he tells me BMI and ASCAP both want $1200 each. I said that is only about $23 a week to pay one. I actually then had to explain what the organizations do. I told him if he gets sued he can argue he uses all songs that are covered by BMI, so he doesn't need to pay into the others. I can't imagine ASCAP will come to the bar and write down every song sung.

Then he starts bragging about how he is getting away with not paying for TVs and jukebox. He says I'm running the TVs through the jukebox speakers and I don't have to pay for the jukebox. I started to laugh and explained his venue was exempt because his sq footage wasn't enough to warrant paying. That is the law and it is stated on both the BMI and ASCAP websites. I also explain he doesn't have to pay for the jukebox because the vender is paying JLO which is stated on the jukebox and unless he is charging a cover charge they can't hit him up on that, also stated on both websites. Interesting his big lawyer didn't tell him this.

My only worry at this point is that he stills doesn't pay because his so called lawyer told him he doesn't have to. $1200 to this guy is nothing. I'd hate to see me get shut down because he refuses to pay because he's stubborn. I think he really listened to what I had to say though.

Just as a side note: He said he had 6 organizations who have contacted him in some way about wanting money for copyright. The only 2 I know of is BMI and ASCAP. I'm sure there are probably others, but how can they all expect to get money? No wonder he's frustrated.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Way to be prepared, Babs. Now he knows that you know what you're talking about...probably saved his bread, too, because if they HAVE been hassling him relentlessly, they're not going to stop until he does something. I highly doubt that he even talked to an attorney. Sounds like a blow-hard.

Anyway, stand your ground. Sad if he doesn't do what he should do and gets shut down - not sad for him, sad for you. There seems to be no end of clueless owners.

k

It still bothers me he tried to get me to pay. I'm trying to look at it as he really had no clue and actually thought it was both our problem. I can see now how really misinformed he was.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Nah. If he's been in business for a few years, he knows about these licenses and also that it is his responsibility to pay them.

Babs I know that you've had issues with this guy for a long time. And I also know that you can't discuss moving the show on a public forum. But I hope you are looking into it.

... and what happened to your dress girl?

Even if they charge $2000 for the year, that breaks down to $5.48 per day. If a bar cannot afford that, then there is something more wrong & I wouldn't want to stay there personally.

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When I first started at our club, they didn't feel they needed to pay either being they are tribal. They'd get the letters & calls & throw them away or hang up. Once they got their summons to appear in court, they decided not to fight it anymore. We pay all 3 ASCAP/BMI/SESAC every year since 94. They have it set up on a quarterly pay schedule if i'm not mistaken.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

You can't blame the owner for trying to get you to pay..why not ?
You don't have to pay it --but maybe he will find another KJ who will ?

Tell him --its an EXPENSES of runninng a bar ..you don't pay the electric bill or business licenses renewals so WHY WOULD YOU PAY the entertainment license FEE ???? YOU are HIRED ENTERTAINMENT and not an employee of the bar and should not get into any license payments etc etc.

Babs, the other thing to check on is if BMI or ASCAP can do a lien on a place that doesn't pay. A good lawyer should be able to tell you. The reason I say this is if they can and they lock out the owner and your gear is inside then you will have a problem getting it out. So if they can seize the place I suggest if you're not there your gear's not there.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I fully concur with this. Do NOT leave any of your gear there until you are 100% sure the bill is paid. The only way I would accept proof as paid is the cancelled cheque.
Having said that, I NEVER, EVER leave my gear overnight in a venue for that very reason. Anything can happen and you don't always know the business dealings of venue owners. Case in point was last fall. I showed up to one of my venues and it was locked up, no explanation no nothing. Turned out that the venue was leased and all lease payments were made on time and in full, but the building owner failed to pay his mortgage. The morgage company walked in one day without warning and seized everything. Had my gear been left there, it would have been at least 2 weeks and a very LARGE lawyer bill before I would have been able to get my gear back. Not to mention the gigs and income I would have missed because of it.
Good luck to you.

Babs!!

DONT PUT UP WITH THIS NON-SENSE FROM THIS GUY.

He's tried to jerk u around before. He's simply trying to WEASLE his way out of performing his liscening resposibility by trying to sluff off the cost to you.

Just stand up to him and tell him to knock it off and the dicussion is over.

If he has a problem with it he can either find another DJ(sucker?) or talk to your attorney.

Dont put up with it from him.

YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT HE IS AN HOW HE TRIES TO GET OVER ON YOU(and probably the rest of his employees too)!!

'NUFF SAID!!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

I would only like to say that this has been the most informative and useful thread in a while. Way to go babs... sorry about your troubles, but as they say adversity breeds innovation. I'm sure that this experience will serve you well in the future, best of luck!

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!