Karaoke Forums

OK it's time for me to tell my secret...

So Gracie, Old Paint and others have noticed I do know what I am doing.. (Gracie) Ya don't need to drop thousands on going to the studio when ya can do it at home. Ya will be shocked how simple it is. Just read below and see how simple my system is and how I do It.

This system can go to a Notebook or PC Running Windows XP with an USB port. This makes life so much simpler than a regular Soundblaster type sound card.

System

Player: JVC SV-22 Single Tray Karaoke Player (Check Around)
Microphone: Audix OM-5 / Audio Technica 6100 $300.00
(Maybe??? I forgot the price)
Audio Interface: Edirol UA-1x (USB Audio Interface)
(low dough) ($79.00 - $110.00 maybe?)
Headphone Amplifier: Rolls 4 ch. stereo ($96.00 any good pro audio
outlet)
Software: Cakewalk's Guitar tracks Pro 3: I have seen it from $99.00 up
to 159.00 ALSO A MUST HAVE A PROGRAM to convert to Mp3
I use Sony's Sound Forge Ver 7 is $450.00 but lower versions
are around 100.00 and I have been now seeing them pop up.

Also you will need assorted cables.

Recording Bundle options: Lexicon has a whole interface with Software now for under $500.00 USD. and it sounds second to none. the only thing is you are back to file conversions again.

I'm thinking about it now being I already own sound forge. But a good microphone is only 1/2 the battle, the other is the rate you record at.. Personally I like 48.000 kbs at 16 bit I also mix with "in-ear monitors" in or headphones on. Not cheap ones. Sony 7509's or AKG 270's.

Why pay someone else to do the work when you can do it yourself UNLESS you are going to put it on the radio or sell it???

I hope this bit of information has helped... my system is so simple and the more stuff that is in the audio chain the more noise you tend to encounter.

Best of luck.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

Thanks for the info fortunately for me I never have to pay studio fees unfortunately it's a 40 minute drive and the sessions are at least 4-6 hours so I would rather work at home. I have cubasis and an older version of acid I am very interested in the mic you have it sounds so good. What did u mean by "the more stuff in the audio chain" exactly?

Thanks Brian!

I've copied your tips and tricks to a txt file on my desktop. Now its time to shop...starting with a decent microphone like yours.


One piece at a time...with some singing in between.

Gracie,
I run my microphone directly into the microphone input in the karaoke machine then the audio output of the karaoke machine into the audio interface directly then the interface DIRECTLY in to my computer.

HERE IS WHY:

There are no analog consoles to make noise or outboard effects units to create noise either. My headphone amplifier is run out of the interface and gets a direct analog signal and is clean too.. it's a beautiful world.. all the mixing is done on PC.. all my effects are plug-ins. (Clean also).

All the cables are short and the less cables that are run the higher the signal quality, and it's a very simple world to fix if there is a problem.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

Mind is real cheap, Brian. I dont think a pro studio will help in my case cos i cant yet sing properly. Your mic is damm expensive. Your mic cable must have cost more than my mic. ($25)
I hope to catch up with you guys.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Badsinger..
At my cost.. that's about what the microphone cables cost me after sales tax.

Wait a minute.. I had the one I'm using left here for me to fix and it was never picked up.. so mine was free.

It's been here for the last 6 months along with about 40 other Microphone cables.. I have called the guy 30 times and he never seems to come and get them. I like that arrangement.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

So you don't suggest running the mic directly into the audio interface? By the way mine is Tascam US-122 usbaudio/midi interface. And another thing my husband bought a Casio wk-3500 keyboard and I'm just now realizing that there is a way to hook it to the audio interface, should I do it this way or directly to the computer. I know there is a way to take midi files and play them through the keyboard in layers but I'm not even close to figuring that out. Any input would be helpful.


Ronda

No use the karaoke machine with the microphone inputs.. if you can. it has some equalization .. Your interface may do.. the keyboard input is alright .. but do one track at a time and mix it down in multi-track form to get the mix you want and the levels that will make the mix work. the last thing you do is add effects in plug in form and final mix compressor and then edit dead spaces of vocals out then bounce all tracks to one single master mix.. check for mixing errors and convert to Mp3 again check file size ... listen again... and if ok .. upload. TADA!

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

This is the last thing Brian I promise!!!! Tell me a little more about the plug in effects?

Ronda

Cubase uses Direct-X type effects, just as many others such as Cakewalk and Lexicon. they are available usually by purchase for a nominal fee just like buying Hardware effects but usually more affordable, and usually do nearly the same things as thier rack counterparts. They are insertable usually by Highlighting the track and putting them in as any Gate or compressor would. (on newer software) consult owners manual or call tech support. Some companies have Demos of certian types of plug-in's for short periods of time and are really ok but be careful they may sound great in the studio environment, but may not burn down or upload.

Best of luck.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

Brian,

I am not sure I completely agree. I would change the priorities somewhat.

The most important thing is to present the cleanest signal to the A/D converter, which converts from the analog sound (your voice) to the digital bits in the computer.

To achieve that I would use a good mic and a small mixer, or dedicated mic pre-amp connected with balanced XLR cables to the mic. The mic pre-amp in either a karaoke player or most sound-cards (unless you go pro) is no match for what you usually find in a mixer or mic pre-amp. Some options are RNP (http://www.fmraudio.com/), or a small Behringer, Mackie, Carvin mixer.

Then I would use a very short cable to connect the mixer pre-amp to the sound card. If the sound card accepts balanced signaling I would use a balanced cable otherwise an unbalanced cable would suffice if the length is kept as short as possible. As you suggest an external USB sound card should be used to avoid electromagnetic interference which is plentyful inside a computer chassis. Finally, the USB sound card is then connected either to a laptop or desktop. Some good external sound cards are: Maudio, Aardvark, Sound Blaster (Extigy, Audigy, not in the same leaque, but probably ok).

For software we again do not agree. I would go with Adobe Audition, which for recording is fine. If you want to compose music Cakewalk is better suited. The advantage of AA is that everything you need is built in: file format converters, effects,editing etc.

Finally, I would use a CD+G compatible cd-rw drive to get the music from the karaoke cd's into the computer. This gives you a perfect digital copy to which you can add you vocal. I don't see any need for the karaoke player for a home recording studio. For live PA use it is fine if you don't want to run your karaoke directly from the pc.

Regarding sample frequencies. To perform sample rate conversion is not easy. Interpolations have to be performed which can affect quality. As a general rule you should record with the same sample frequency as the end product. You can benefit from recording with higher precision (more bits/sample) but should use at least 16 bits/sample. Since all the karaoke music is in 44 kHz, 16 bits/sample I would suggest recording in the same format since ultimately that is also what you will be mixing to. Unless you are a bat you won't be able to hear frequencies above 20 kHz, anyway.


For reference this is my setup:

Shure SM58 on stand w. pop stopper into Carvin C1644 mixer using balanced XLR cable
Short 1/4" to 1/8" unbalanced cable connects the mixer to my Sound Blaster Live!

All eq and effects are performed in software (Adobe Audition).

The only thing I am not completely satisfied with is the sound card. I will replace that with an external USB sound card.

My mixer is a 16 channel mixer ($700) which for this application is overkill. Behringer sells a cheap 5 chanel mixer for $50.

Finally, you need closed headphones so you can hear the music and yourself, without recording the music in the vocal track.

Morten

Morten,
a couple of things...

The headphones I mentioned "CLOSED AIR RECORDING TYPE HEADPHONES" and are the standard in the recording industry or are really close. I think maybe the AKG 270 has been discontinued and has been replaced by the AKG 271. But

The programs and products that has been discribed are currently being used for analog to digital recording in project studios around the world.
Sure digital consoles are fine if anybody wishes to spend the money but i think alot of people wish not to spend that type of money to put a song up here. most are looking for an affordable way to get a clean affordable way to get great sounding songs to post up on the showcase. with my methods I get projects that I just can take to my big studio and master, and are good enough to submit to labels for consideration for sale.

I disagree totally on the use of a SM-58 for recording for personal reasons, a shure dynamic mic is fine for live .. but there better microphones to record with that bring out the color and clarity in a voice and when you record flat to begin with.. there fewer "adjustments" to make with the tracks in the mixing phaze of the recording process.

I made a recommendation on 2 dynamic microphones that will work and there about 5 condensers that will work for those who do the same methods that have thier own power supplies. Studio projects makes a few and so does Rode. both are quite pricey but sound absolutely awesome and will really require a In-line -10 db pads or console to run. (sorry to say) they run some great gain, but the tone is accurate as it gets.

My honest opinion is listen to them before buying them .. If you must use an analog console the only console I would use is a mackie analog (vlz series) and send it as Aux levels so you can control everything precisly. Not main output console levels.

My only complaint is Behringer has a shelf life and gets noisy after 6 months to 2 years.. that has been proven and I even have been told that by the Behringer Reps from Germany at trade shows myself. so that's one of the main reasons I avoid the product. Otherwise the product is great to "Get by with".

Morten I'd love to hear one of your tracks sometime..

Please submit one.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

Brian,

most of the tracks are on DTS: http://www.daretosing.com/?include=user ... rinfo=5445. I also have one on Singers Showcase, under the name MortenN (http://www.singersshowcase.com/song.php ... 1&act2=827). Feel free to listen both places and comment. I am not a particularly good singer, but the recordings are clear (apart from a few pops/breath noise on some of the early recordings until I started to use a pop filter).

I don't claim the SM-58 is the best recording mic, I bought two for my PA. I am though pretty happy with both of them. I know singers on DTS that sound phenomenal recording with PG-58. I would however like a better mic for recording: I think my next one will be a Shure Beta 87A. You know it is all a question of how much you want to spend (and can afford).

Perhaps I wasn't clear in the previous e-mail I connect the Direct Out of the mixer to the line-in on the sound card. In this way I use the mic pre-amp in the mixer, but bypasses most of the other stuff.

I wasn't advocating spending tons of money, actually the suggestions I gave were considerably cheaper than yours:

- I don't think a $300 mic is necessary for good home recordings
- I don't think it is necessary to buy both Cakewalk and Sound Forge when Audition will do the job quite nicely for less money
- I wasn't talking about digital consoles
- I stand by my statement that any mixer will outperform the mic input on the karaoke players. I have an tripple tray myself. Just the fact that you have to use unbalanced mic cable sucks. Using a mixer will also eliminate the cost of the headphone amplifier. Also if you want to use a condenser microphone you have to have either a mixer or a phantom power supply.
- I wouldn't spend hundreds of dollars on headphone. I don't think the type of headphones is all that important as long as they are closed and have a reasonable frequency response. Especially if they are mostly being used for hearing yourself and the music while singing.

Why don't you in your reply propose a home studio in a box priced out with all components to assist others. Based on your suggestions so far I think you will exceed $1000

Morten

BTW. I have no experience with Behringer, and only mentioned them because they are cheap. Not everone is willing to buy a $700 board.

Morten
These programs are for multi-track use, not the single track use of AA and are geared for time saving and carry compressors , and an array of plug-in effects.. the software of guitar tracks pro 3 I just saw again today was around $100.00 again!!! for a boxed version and so if anybody is lucky they really could find the whole software setup for near $200.00 USD.

And this means tighter mixes, better quality tracks, and better online submissions for those who really wanna take the time and do the process.

Not 30 takes of messed up tracks although I and others I know get thiers in usually 8 to 10 on a bad day..

This is for those who already use multi-track programs that want something MORE or are thinking about multi-track. Morten as we know it's not an inexpensive world to multi-track but this is a good basic start.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

_________________
[scroll][/scroll]

[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]

Jazzy and others,

Here is my disclaimer....

Everything I put in the above threads is an suggestion and is pretty much what I use, or would use, and or recommend. Nothing is written in stone and is pretty much personal preference, there many ways to achieve a great recording for online.. but this is how I do it at home, or wherever I am at the time, outside of the studio.

I believe these are the simplest ways for the software and materials I use,
Now that "adobe audition" comes in a professional bundle it has been priced out of the reach. So many audio retailers now refusing to carry it.

Because I refuse to download anything that is not in my retailer's outlet or they refuse to carry.

I tend to support those manufacturers that keep the products affordable to keep in the retailer's outlets.

Jazzy, this not a personal thing... I'm not going to argue this .. these are only suggestions again.
You do a great job at your recordings.. I'm not arguing that.

This was posted to explain my methods and the costs. it's still inexpensive compared to what it really could be.

_________________
Brian D.
(BHB)

_________________
[scroll][/scroll]

[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]

There are not many in this forum who can beat me in terms of simplicity when it come to recording. Just plain basic. No mixer, no Cool Edit Pro. or AA. Its just,me sing ,the Mic. Sound card and the recording software that comes with the card (SBL). I sing direct to the music tracks. Damm diff. to do and normaly more than 10 takes and over a week to get it right.

The reason I do this is cos I am still learning how to sing rather than how to record. Until I know how to sing well then only will I use those editing softwares.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Brian and others,

I bought a brand new original Adobe Audition on Ebay for $150. I think that is about the going rate.

As Elisha correctly pointed out AA is a _very_ powerful multitrack recording software. Brian, I remember how you were screwing around with your tools before you found a way to post here. With AA (or Cool Edit Pro which is the same) it works out of the box, with all effects you want, multitrack recording, punch in corrections, and the ability to save to any file format.

BTW. I think Elisha is an excellent example of the point I made earlier. With an SM-58, AA, and a reasonable simple setup she sounds as good as any on this board. I would love to sound that good!!!! The recording equipment providers would love you to believe that better equipment will substantially improve how you sound. The truth is if you are a good singer you sound good on any equipment!

Morten

Elisha,

I am thinking about going condenser, just for fun. I think the Shure Beta 87A looks like a good option. It is still a live microphone and shouldn't be too fragile. I will let you know how I feel when I get one.

Large diaphragm condensers are fragile, as you said, also they are too sensitive for most homes. I think you really need a sound proof room to use one of those.

Morten