Karaoke Forums

I'd love any reviews from those of you that are familiar with them.

I'm working in a big jazz club here in San fran that has a house wired sound system- the speakers are all in the ceiling. I feel like I'm screaming myself hoarse everynight just trying to be heard.

From what I can tell- the neumann is a better mic- but works optimally with an in ear monitoring system. It's also very sensitive and I am afraid that may give me feedbak problems...especially given that the stage is literally under the speakers in the ceiling.

The shure is pretty close to the neumann but not as sensitive...but it won't pick up the juicier lower parts if my voice like the neumann will. It will also work just fine with a normal monitor wedge or personal monitor like a hotspot. I'm just afraif it will make me sound shrill.

I know they are both condenser mics with great reps... I can also get either one of them for about the same price. of 500.00 which is about half of what I've seen them for retail. They are allowing me to test the both side by side when the shure comes into th store next week. I'd like any thoughts any of you have...especially anything I need to look for when I test them. I've invested this kind of money on a wireless mic before but never a corded one...and never one that has a rep for being delicate. Any feed back regarding either f these will be greatly appreciated!

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I doubt anyone here (except maybe LondonLive) is competent to say anything. I would suggest making the same post to rec.audio.pro or the LAB Lounge. I would be happy to
do that for you if you want -- I will point you to the web links that would show the replies.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well hex, don't I feel important now. That's a hard act to follow Mickey.
I don't know how much help I can be here, but I will address a couple of the issues that seem to be of concern for you Oneofakind. It would help if I knew a couple of things like what your vocal register is, how far away these vileness ceiling speakers are and perhaps what type of Mic you are using now that is making you work so hard.

Right off the top of my head I would think you would be happier with the Neumann for a few reasons. I wouldn't be all that concerned with the monitor situation, I believe it's the KMS 105 which is a supercardioid which will give you a full 180° of suppression to the rear of the capsule. The KMS 104 is a cardioid and would be a little less wedge friendly but still useable. There are some that say the 105 is not female voice friendly, especially if you happen to be a soprano, as it tends to roll off lower frequencies, you would have to decide that for yourself while testing one. I personally don't think it is anything that a little EQ couldn't handle. There are also those that feel the Nuemann could use a little more of a pop filter in them but I think that complaint comes more from people with poor mic habits because they are not used to using a high quality mic with exceptionally pristine abilities. A quality mic in the hands of a talented vocalist is truly an instrument.

They are both great mics but all and all in my own personal experience and I believe the general consensus also, is that the KMS105 is superior to the KSM9 Shure. Another mic you might want to consider would be the AKG ELLE C, I'm not saying it's a Neumann, but it certainly may warrant a look. I have had good experience with them also.
http://www.akg.com/site/press_center/po ... ge,EN.html
Please let us know what your thoughts are after you get a chance to compare them. Good luck.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Neumann mics are awesome, but you could spend the $500 only to find yourself STILL screaming to be heard...albeit with better quality screaming.

My two cents, but if you have to scream to be heard (or hear yourself), it seems the clubs PA and/or monitor design is the issue, not the mic.

Having personally used both, I would strongly recommend the Neumann. The isolation by the shock mount on the Neumann is noticeably better than that of the KSM 9. The polar pattern switch on the Shure is a neat idea but doesn't really serve a useful purpose. In my use, I've actually found the Neumann to be a bit warmer than the Shure, and personally I like that when mixing female vocals. Although a little work on the channel strip EQ will take care of any real deficiencies of either mic.

As far as your situation in the club, I do have to agree that something isn't right with the mix. the monitors or whatever you're using to hear yourself. Even with a basic Dynamic mic they should be able to get enough level out of your vocals so that you can sing properly. Is someone running front of house sound or is someone doing it from on stage? Do you have monitors? If so get them properly tweaked so you can hear yourself.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I did take the liberty of posting on rec.audio.pro. Here is a response from someone who really knows his stuff in this area.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.audi ... 2b7cb8887#

Text below.

Note -- if you mention karaoke on these forums, prepare for some scoffing.

From: Scott Dorsey

Mickey wrote:
>NOTE: This is posted for someone else. I will collect replies. We have
> already given feedback that there are obvious problems in the
> sound setup, and that hearing yourself isn't necessarily improved
> with a better mic.
>
>Subject: trying to decide between a NEUMANN KMS 105 or a SHURE KSM 9 mic
>
>I'd love any reviews from those of you that are familiar with them.

They sound totally different. Both are very directional and have really
good isolation, but the KMS105 has a really tipped-up and bright top end.
This works great on some voices, while on other voices it can be a
real problem because it will exaggerate tonsil noise.

>I'm working in a big jazz club here in San fran that has a house wired
>sound system- the speakers are all in the ceiling. I feel like I'm
>screaming myself hoarse everynight just trying to be heard.

What mike are you using?

>From what I can tell- the neumann is a better mic- but works optimally
>with an in ear monitoring system. It's also very sensitive and I am
>afraid that may give me feedbak problems...especially given that the
>stage is literally under the speakers in the ceiling.

EVERYTHING works optimally with in-ear monitors. Bringing your backline
levels down and monitoring levels down is a HUGE win. The Neumanns are
no different than any other mike in that regard.

>The shure is pretty close to the neumann but not as sensitive...but it
>won't pick up the juicier lower parts if my voice like the neumann will.
>It will also work just fine with a normal monitor wedge or personal
>>monitor like a hotspot. I'm just afraif it will make me sound shrill.

Juicier lower parts? What makes you think it's thin sounding?

>I know they are both condenser mics with great reps... I can also get
>either one of them for about the same price. of 500.00 which is about
>half of what I've seen them for retail. They are allowing me to test the
>both side by side when the shure comes into th store next week. I'd like
>any thoughts any of you have...especially anything I need to look for
>when I test them. I've invested this kind of money on a wireless mic
>before but never a corded one...and never one that has a rep for being
>delicate. Any feed back regarding either f these will be greatly
>appreciated!

ANY store that will sell you something like this will allow you to take
it out and audition it. Try them both, get the PA guy to record you
with a quick board tape. Take the tapes home, listen to them, pick the
mike that sounds best on your voice.

And try the Sennheiser MD431 while you're at it. It's a highly underrated
microphone... and it works very well on a lot of voices that the KSM9 and
KMS105 may not.

If people all had the same kind of voice, they'd only need to make one kind
of vocal mike. But they don't.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

"Mickey" wrote:
> I'm working in a big jazz club here in San fran that has a house wired
> sound system- the speakers are all in the ceiling. I feel like I'm
> screaming myself hoarse everynight just trying to be heard.
>
> From what I can tell- the neumann is a better mic- but works optimally
> with an in ear monitoring system. It's also very sensitive and I am
> afraid that may give me feedbak problems...especially given that the
> stage is literally under the speakers in the ceiling.

Sensitivity of the mic isn't a factor with feedback. When you're using a
more sensitive mic, you turn down the gain so the *effective* sensitivities,
to your voice and to feedback, are the same. What matters is off-axis
response; peaks in the off-axis response can give you bad feedback problems.
The Shure is good in that regard.

> The shure is pretty close to the neumann but not as sensitive...but it
> won't pick up the juicier lower parts if my voice like the neumann will.
> It will also work just fine with a normal monitor wedge or personal
> monitor like a hotspot. I'm just afraif it will make me sound shrill.

In my experience, the Shure is less bright than the Neumann, so I don't
think that's something to worry about. As for the juicy lower end...try the
Shure in hypercardioid mode rather than cardioid. In my experience it picks
up deep, rich vocal tones very well.

> I know they are both condenser mics with great reps... I can also get
> either one of them for about the same price. of 500.00 which is about
> half of what I've seen them for retail. They are allowing me to test the
> both side by side when the shure comes into th store next week. I'd like
> any thoughts any of you have...especially anything I need to look for
> when I test them. I've invested this kind of money on a wireless mic
> before but never a corded one...and never one that has a rep for being
> delicate. Any feed back regarding either f these will be greatly
> appreciated!

The KSM9 doesn't have a reputation as a delicate mic -- no Shure mic in my
experience does. The one I tested was built like a tank.

Seriously, my experience with the KSM9 persuaded me that it was one of the
great vocal mics, for live or studio use, and if used properly can solve a
lot of problems, probably including yours.

Disclaimer: I have no connection with Shure other than as a satisfied
customer of some of their products.

Peace,
Paul Stamler

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

WOW! Now this is GREAT! Thank you ALL sooo much!

To answer the two main questions- there IS a sound guy- but I don't have very much faith in his "ear" I just have to trust him when he says it sounds fine out front because there are no monitors of any sort. I'm planning to get a powered mackie and run my mic through it into the wall board at the club. It has phantom power which I believe both mics require- but it also allows me to adjust my levels as well as hi, mid and low before it's sent to the house board and I LOVE that idea! Getting the band to "come down" it a great idea in theory- but in actuality- they are all fabulous musicians with equally fabulous egos... if you get my drift. The leader is a grammy nominated pianist who normally is the "feature" on any song- as a result he doesn't quite "get" the idea of what an accompanist is. I forgive him because he's so dang GOOD! But lower levels is not in ANY of their vocabs- and towards the end of the night when we're doing the more danceable stuff ...FUGGETABOUTIT! They morph into some kind of jazz-funk animal and LOUD seems to be the prerequisite( unfortunately for the singers and ANYONE trying to have a conversation )

The second question is regarding my voice- you can go listen to some of my subs in the showcase under the same oneofakind864 name. "Somewhere in my lifetime" or "feel the fire" show what I mean about the low and high aspects of my voice. But if thats too time consuming-and I completely understand that it may be! I'd say that I'm a combination of lower female voices like Phyllis Hyman or possibly Gladys knight...but in the upper ranges I sound alot like Diane Schuur, Anastacia, and Taylor Dayne. I'd call myself a "female tenor with a big range" This club seems to make me do much more of the upper range stuff to cut through the mix than I'd like since I think the lower end of my range is juicier and more enjoyable to listen to. When I get into theupper ranges IMHO- I think it can be a little piercing- kind of like Chaka Khan when she gets up there. I'm currently using a sennheiser evolution series wireless with a back up sennheiser 935 corded mic. I got the sennheisers because they played up the lower end of my voice and didn't add shrillness to the upper register.

Based on sound alone- I'd get the neumann without batting an eye- but i do have to take into account that there will be the ceiling speakers, a not dependable soundman, and my own personal mackie monitor. So given that whats the verdict now?

BTW Ya'll are great BEYOND anything I expected when I posted this ...MCKYJ57, letitrip and london live- you're input is GREATLY appreciated! ~ I love the idea of asking to try both live side by side in the actual setting...never thought that would be a kosher request- but if that;s the norm- then I'm asking! That would seriously solve ALL my problems! I know both are gonna sound great at guitar center- but I was concerned that they would be different in the actual job arena- which is less than optimal! I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts taking the new info into consideration! I'm blowing big kisses at all of you mwaaahhh!

_________________

Paula, what about in-ear monitoring (IEM)? Might not that be as good or better investment? The Sennheiser 935 is a very good vocal mic, and in combination with IEM you should be able to hear yourself and get back the control you feel you have lost.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

"Phildo" <Phil@phildo.net> wrote in message
news:gvtr34$9hv$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "geoff" <geoff@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:ovednUkz7akwyL_XnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Mickey" <mickey@perusion.net> wrote in message
>> news:slrnh203ba.85m.mickey@bill.heins.net...
>>> NOTE: This is posted for someone else. I will collect replies. We have
>>> already given feedback that there are obvious problems in the
>>> sound setup, and that hearing yourself isn't necessarily improved
>>> with a better mic.
>>>
>>> Subject: trying to decide between a NEUMANN KMS 105 or a SHURE KSM 9 mic
>>
>> Try the RODE S1 as well.
>
> Seconded. I always carry one with me.
>
> Phildo
>

Thirded on the Rode S1--a very nice sounding mic on a variety of voices and
good off-axis rejection which, from the sound of it, is what you need.

Also endorsed are all the posts saying you really have to try these mics on
your own voice. When you get to the level of decent condensor mics, there
is a real element of matching the mic to the performer--and the two on your
shortlist are VERY different sounding microphones.

Finally, I hope I'm wrong but your description of the club sound system with
the "speakers in the ceiling" doesn't inspire confidence. Do be aware that
you can't fix a crap sound system by feeding it with a great microphone. I
hope I'm wrong on this, but....

Bob

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The problem with in-ears is that then she may have to find a way to get the entire band in her monitor mix, or leave one ear bud out (which pretty much defeats the purpose). The ear phones included with most (if not all) quality in-ear systems are sound isolating. I can tell you from personal experience, they do their job very well and it's incredibly hard to hear anything that is not coming through in-ears. I think the idea of using the little hot-spot Mackie is a good one. That way she can send her vocals nice and hot in her monitor and still hear the band around her.

Paula, definitely ask to try both of them out in the real situation (not just at the store), they shouldn't give you any problem with that I wouldn't think (although if they don't know you well they may want money up front). There's no replacement for trying things out in the venue itself so see what you can do and in the end, pick the one you're most comfortable with. Either mic will work well but you want to get the one that you're going to be happiest with, not the one that I or the next person told you to get out of our experiences with them.

As a front of house engineer I can get a comfortable vocalist sounding great, however if the vocalist is not comfortable, the best mic in the world isn't going to help that. So get what makes sense for you and good luck!!

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Tony, You nailed why I by passed the in ear monitor system...it's jazz so nothing is set in stone and we in the band always reacting to each other which keeps it fresh- but you have to be able to hear. Plus I wear evening gowns and those bulky clip on body packs drive me NUTZ!

I'm calling the store today to ask about trying both mics at the venue...they should let me since I'm also looking at investing about 5000 in 2 double bass Bose PAS L1 model II systems plus the tone match engine, gig bags and assessories. It this recession- that kind of sale doesn't come easily I would imagine.

I'm going to be starting at the jazz club with my own band in a few weeks on friday and let the loud band I'm working with now "have at it on Sat" - and I'd like to bypass the clubs crappy system and just bring in my own. Having that Bose system is also gonna be part of the marketing I'll be doing. They have agreed to give me 45 days to use them in the club which is basically 6 weeks of shows- so we'll get to work all the bugs out and have a real estimation of what the system can do before we committ to keeping it. It does seem like people who want to listen to "jazz" are the ones that kinda resent having their ears assaulted by overly loud bands. Jazz rooms are also rarely huge, so I think two of these bose "sticks" with 4 bass modules will be ample to cover the size and types of rooms I'll be playing and then some.

I also think the more sensitive condenser mics will really come into their own to make it easy for me to sound good in this more balanced and softer sounding environment. Any of you have any advice on the Bose L1 model II? It seems to be pretty straight forward- once you get your settings programmed in. Any monkeys waiting to jump on my back with it that you know of?

_________________

You are going to get opinions all over the map. I am not a Bose fan. Others are. The pro sound community is more often than not dismissive of it, but there are working musicians who like them.

It might be better than what you have, and it might be easy to use. Other than that, I won't speak ill.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Tony also loved your comment about the Neumann being warmer then the Shure...that is the kind of comment I was looking for from someone who knows both. I have a lower register that is full - it's actually my favorite part of my voice...but I find myself using the upper/chest parts of my register to be heard and from what you said- the shure could push that part of my voice over the edge into shrillness-where the neumann could add a little warmth to smooth things a bit. Thank you for sharing your experiance with me!

I read what londonlive said about the 105 "rolling off lower frequencies" I've also read that in other reviews on this mic but I'm not sure what that actually means. I'm in the lower...say tenor/contralto registers about 50% of the time...the other part I'm in the upper taylor dayne-esque parts of the female register. Think Etta james/gladys knight/peabo bryson. I can't see myself ever singing "soprano" at the venues I will be working at...but in my mind a mic that "rolled off the LOWER registers- would be better for a soprano- not worse. I'm obviously confused about this.London live(or anyone else that knows) Can ya tell me what that roll off phrase means- cuz I'm definitely missing it.

_________________

Thanks Mickey- all opinions are appreciated!

I think I can understand why the pro audio community wouldn't be fans of this

_________________

The low frequency roll-off on the Neumann affects 120 Hz and below. This would be a low male bass vocal range so I doubt your vocals are getting that low. Basically what it means is that the microphone has a built in circuit that applies a gentle attenuation (reduction) for frequencies at or below 120 Hz. The amount of reduction gets more agressive below 100 Hz. This is done to reduce handling noise and for your application I think you'd realize all its benefits without any side effect.

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Thanks for clarifying that! I totally understand why this would affect bass voices but why would this be a bad thing for a soprano? I never made that connection. Why would a soprano even notice a difference if the lower frequencies are what is affected?

Also thanks for defining the difference between cardioid and super cardioid!(where does hyper cardioid fit into this?) I knew the 104 had a smaller cone than the 105- but I had it backwards- I thought that cone was boosted rather than suppressed. I was thinking that a 105 would feedback MORE easily rather than less. Guess that's what a "singer" gets when she ends up stepping into the land of the soundman!

and here is the biggest indication I have NO clue about mic's other than some I like some I don't..."what is th difference between a condenser mic and a dynamic mic?" I know they operate differently- but I'm talking about the sound of the two. I was under the impression that the condenser is much more sensitive and can pick upt very subtle things in a voice...I thought dynamics were "the workhorses" that were durable and had a good- even great sound- but i didn't think they were in the same league as a condenser mic( based on the price they aren't- ) What benefits does a condenser have over a dynamic and vice versa? I've always used dynamic but as a show recently one of the other vocalists had a shure ksm9 and he ket me sing a song through hus mic- OMG! What a difference. I can't even explain it..if I were to describe the difference I'd say the ksm9 was 3 times juicier than my dynamic sennheiser 935. It literally took about 30% less effort to make the song sound like I wanted than it does on the 935- THAT's why i thought it would help me cutting through a loud mix. I've never gotten to use the Neumann but 3 different soundmen who are familiar with my voice have reccommended the 105 to me in the past 3 years. I figured it must be something in my voice that made them think that. but hey- I'm open to suggestions. I have both the ksm and the kms105 to try side by side in the store at the end of this week. I'm going to ask if i can use both at my jazz club to see them is actual action. But i am learning so much from this forum- thank you guys from the bottom of my heart!

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THE RESULTS ARE IN AND HERE THEY ARE!


I went with the Shure Ksm9 after trying both the Neumann and it side by side. I do have to let y'all know that there is a health code that prevents returning mic's in CA so we basically recreated the situation of the overhead speakers and the drums and keyboard amps behind me- in the store. The option of trying them both in the actual situation would have gotten the rep fired had he allowed me to do that- plus they didn't have a "demo" shureKSM9- it was a special order. The manager said he might have allowed him to fudge a bit if they had had a "demo" version of both mics on hand.(pouty lip) But I thought you all might be interested in hearing what we found when we tested the 2 mics. I don't like adding any effects to my voice in this room because of all the bouncy surfaces(just muddies the mix)So I didn't allow them to add effects on either mic in the in-store trial. The Neumann was very warm and realistic sounding in the store but- it was also a touch dry. It also tended to feedback if I wasn't vigilant about keeping it right next to me so it didn't pick up any of the backwash noice. It also dropped off significantly at about 8 inches- and since I have such a powerful top end- I'm not comfortable with a mic tecnique that requires me to eat the mic- even on the louder parts. It also picked up lots of bleed from the other speakers if I was even the tiniest bit off axis. I think if i were going to be in situations where I "always" had a fabulous soundman- that might give me the incentive needed to learn a different technique that would be required with such a sensitive mic. The neumann demands a vocalist to "TRUST" it... and it also requires a great soundman to make it run optimally. IMHO if either of these isn't present- you're wasting your money on this mic. It was a great mic- but just not the best for me ...especially in that particular situation.

The Shure was a bit brighter and more airy sounding. The boosts it gives the mid and upper ranges made it easier to cut through the mix of all the other instruments. It didn't require that I eat it either. The drop off was at about 18 inches to 2 feet- and when it did kick in- it wasn't as steep as with the neumann. So the "sweetspot" was much bigger with the KSM9. I found out I personally like the bigger sweetspot - though I have also had to admit to myself that I am a "mic snob" I honestly WANTED the Neumann to be the better mic for me...I guess just because of the name. Once I actually got the KSM9 set up at the venue- I had people in the audience listening closely and I only had to pull away on the loudest parts or super high notes with the KSM9. The boosted highs made it very crisp and, compared to the other singers using dynamic mics, I was told it was much easier to understand my lyrics. I know a few times I even heard myself inhale- never heard THAT before . The KSM9 was also MUCH less prone to feedback(this was in both the store test and in the real venue) - even when I got off axis and the house speakers were above it going full blast.

The Mackie SM150 powered mixer was a GREAT thing. We ran my mic through it and then to the wall so I had control over my volume levels. When we did songs with harmony I turned off the monitor coming to me and just listened to the house mains so I didn't overpower the other singers. PLus I also didn't think it would be very considerate for me to be blasting my voice at them when they are trying to sing harmony with each other- so this set up worked like a charm in both the solo and group situations. When I wasn't singing- i turned my mic off and put it in it's padded box so that no one grabbed it to use. ( I would'a had to open up a can of whup azz on anyone who tried-LOL)

My sincere thanks to those all of you who gave me their professional input- especially letitrip. You were right on the money when you told me what to look for! A big Mwaaahhh to all of you though!

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Congrats on finding your mic. From what people say about it, you have made a great choice.


I have heard this said a million times but never seen a shred of evidence to support microphones being items which cannot be resold due to health considerations. Top sound professionals audition microphones all the time. No list of items you can't resell exists that I know of. Google yields nothing that I can see.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Hey Paula, that's great news!! Glad to hear you got the right mic and are as happy as you seem to be with it! Congrats on the new purchase, that Shure should give you many years of vocal bliss

_________________
DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke