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I'm going to try to make this as impartial as possible:

I was out of town, had a replacement at my Saturday gig that was recommended to me by a karaoke guy I've known for a long time. Bar owner and manager said that the fill-in was really bad, had people leaving the bar. They only paid her $100.00 instead of the $175.00 that I make. Bar does not have a history of this, they have always paid my fill-ins the nightly rate. Fill-in is calling and texting me 4-5 times a day demanding that I pay her the other $75.00.

I don't think I have any financial responsibility in this situation, and tell her she needs to take it up with the bar. What do you think?

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Well..hmmmmm, this is a crap situation. Did you have the kj fill in for you or did the bar take care of it? Did you tell her that it was going to be $175, and the bar then cut the pay? Obviously, the bar thought that they didn't need to pay her and she wasn't worth your cut. One solution would be to just pay her the $75 and chalk it up as a loss. I'm not sure what I would do here...need a little more on the story...MrD

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[highlight=midnightblue]MrD - KJ/DJ Specialist
Visit MrD on facebook - mrdsentertainment
& on myspace - larrynance[/highlight]

Sounds like it was your call, but with nothing in writting, we're talking personal feelings, and public relations. I believe in compromise.....see if the bar or the kj will meet you, 1/3 to 1/2 of the way, and if not, your reputation with whomever it may affect ia all that's at stake. Sounds like it's your call.......good luck.

Obviously, $100 is all the bar owner thought she was worth. Do you really want to keep a relationship with another KJ that could cost you a gig if you sent her to fill in for you? She shold give you half of the $100 she did get to apologize for almost costing you a steady gig.

On the flip side, the bar owner now knows that not all KJ's are created equal and maybe will appreciate the good job that you do on a weekly basis and might never consider hiring an undercutter in the future.

Tough situation ! The problem I see is the fill in was promised $175 and didn't receive it. Is she aware of why she was only given $100?

I would talk to her and explain your situation and like Johnny said try and compromise with her. See if she'll take less money. I'd think she'd want to take some responsibility for the fact it's coming out of your own pocket because she didn't do her job. If it was me in her shoes and I knew the venue had people leaving and they lost revenue because of me, I wouldn't even ask for the extra money.

Then I would speak with the venue owner. I would make nice at first apologizing for her performance and explain she came highly recommended by a fellow KJ. I wouldn't want to jeopardize my gig with the venue, but I'd try to ensure with them that they don't just take it upon themselves to short you any night they see fit. Depending on your relationship with this venue I'd consider asking a compromise on the money that now is coming out of your pocket for the fill in. I'm concerned about the fact they didn't give you a second thought when shorting her. Did they try and contact you at all before doing this? Did they call and explain why they did it?

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I go along with this, if it was you that hired this person & gave her a price, then just pay it & chalk it up as a loss - but know not to use this person in future.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I'll agree with Lonman...your deal with your fill-in was between you and the other KJ. If you gave the fill in the rate of pay, that's the amount you have committed to pay them. The fact that they didn't perform up to par is moot. If they're a bad KJ, don't hire them again. To be ethical you'll either have to go back to the bar (I would find them paying the KJ less unacceptable personally) or eat the $75 yourself.

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[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
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The real question is Who spoke to the Fill In? If YOU spoke to the fill-In and discussed starting times and PAY . Then YOU have an obligation to make good on the full amount. Doesn't mean you need to take it out of your pocket ..but the venue should understand that there could be some nights when you need to hire a Fill-In to cover for you and they deserve the same compensation you get. OTHERWISE you'll just have to call OUT ..and you probably can't afford to do that either. ....

Yeah, I have spoken with the bar owner and bar manager and gotten the whole scoop. I've been there 5 years and have a great relationship with everyone there, so I'm not worried about my gig at all. And they've never shorted anyone else for any reason through those 5 years. They said that they played the baseball game until 11:00, so she arrived at 9:30 but told her to go ahead and relax until 11:00. They then said that her and her friend then sang about 8-10 songs in a row with dead air between. This is a 21-35 year old audience, and this lady is about 40, so I can't imagine they were exactly playing to the crowd with these songs. The bar manager then recommended she play some dance music to warm up the crowd, and she played 3 line dance songs in a row (Cupid Shuffle, Electric Slide, Cha Cha Slide), her and her friend sang again, then she played the same three songs again. They then had their first singer at about 12:30 and probably 5-6 singers the whole night, with a few country filler songs between (this is a VERY hip-hop/top 40 bar).

The bar manager said there were about 60-70 people in the bar at 11:00, and about 50 people left the bar within 30-45 minutes after the "entertainment" started, leaving about 20 or so people in the place for the last hour and a half. They had thier worst Saturday this year, and thought it was a direct result of her show.

My typical Saturday night there is about 75-150 people.

I never talked to this girl before the gig. The guy I know said he'd take care of getting her in there, and we never even discussed the $$$. In my head, it didn't matter because they always pay my replacements the same thing they pay me.

I feel like I gave her a gig, not hired her for a job. If I was a roofer, and I gave another roofer a roofing job because I couldn't do it, then the owner of the house didn't pay that roofer what they would have paid me because the roofer did a subpar job, then how would it be logical that I would be responsible for paying the difference to that roofer?

I'm not worried about my reputation or what this lady thinks of me, I just lost $175.00 from not being able to do the gig that night, and I can't afford to lose another $75.00 just because this lady is having a hissy fit. Am I wrong?

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Well if you didn't discuss price with her & that was the bars decision, then I wouldn't worry about it. I was under the assumption you had, in which then if it were me i'd pay the difference & cut the loss.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I'd certainly also explain what happened to the guy who referred this woman to you in the first place - he shouldn't be recommending her, based on the owner's description of what she did.

Ok..the situation is much more clear now. I can see both sides. I get the fact that you can't cover the $75 and the only reason you would...is becuase that is the ethical thing to do. Truthfully, you don't owe the cash...in 'this' situation. Give her a shout and tell her, she didn't get paid for several reasons. She didn't perform for the whole time, she monopolized the time she did, ruined the chance to involve the crowd by playing the same songs over again and singing over and over. After that offer to help cover the loss, but not the whole things. If she balks..walk away..you tried. Definately talk to the owner about this type of thing happening in the future and what to do and also make sure that you square it away up front with the fill in about what the $ is. Again, tough situation...do what you can reasonably do to fix it............MrD

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[highlight=midnightblue]MrD - KJ/DJ Specialist
Visit MrD on facebook - mrdsentertainment
& on myspace - larrynance[/highlight]

Not black and white but if the bar contacts, obviously it's their responsibility. If the kj lines up the sub, he/she should at least share in the burden. This for sure should teach us all a lesson to make any sub deals crystal clear on what the expectations are on all sides beforehand.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

Since you ASKED .... Your way off base, you should have been more involved with your REPLACEMENT for the night instead of leaving it up to someone else.
The fact that this KJ didn't do a good job should have no bearing on their pay.
Many people left and could have been for various reasons --baseball game was over etc etc. BUT LETS SAY the all left because they didn't like the entertainment ..the owner is a SNAKE for shorting their pay. The KJ was their and performed the job ...MAYBE A LOUSY JOB but still provided services that should be paid for. PLUS if the owner/mgt was that unhappy they should have SAID SOMETHING before shorting the pay. I wouldn't give the any money out of your pocket since they were hired by a 3rd party but I would make sure the next time I took a night off I knew who was filling in

Very short and simple. I would definitely NOT cover the $75.00. Just tell her (if the Bar owner didn't already) why she was not paid the full amount, period. If she still has a problem with that, tell her to talk to the Bar owner, if she feels it isn't right. IMHO it is not your responsibility to cover her loss.

I wouldn't pay the $75. This person obviously don't know some of the basic rules to being a successful KJ. You are obviously never going to use this person again, so who cares if their feelings are hurt. Maybe they will ask or learn what it takes to not chase a crowd away. They may not have caused you to lose your gig, or make your regulars not follow you anymore, but it sure made them all mad.

I had someone cover for me a couple of months ago, so I could do a private party. I was packed up and done by midnight, so I stopped at my gig to see how he was doing. My regulars wanted to hang me by my you know whats. He couldn't mix to save his life. He had identical equipment to me, but couldn't duplicate a good mix. I had to adjust the EQ bigtime. He had a straight line across, all at 75%. Sounded horrible. His mics sounded horrible. He wasn't applying any vocal effects, since the button to enable wasn't pressed. Needless to say I had it all fixed within a song.

Felix the KJ

If it's your gig you need to be the one making those arrangements. I do regular fill-ins for some folks and always know what I'm getting paid and who is paying me. When I have a fill-in for my gig it's the exact same situation.

In your situation I wouldn't pay the money and let that potential relationship die off because you're never gonna use her again. I'd be a bit unhappy with the venue for shorting the host and ask them if they're going to do the same with you if they have a bad night when you're there.

Sounds like all 3 parties are at fault here and each of them need to eat a bit of money and credibility in general. From what I read there's plenty of blame to share.

You are not responsible for paying this person as YOU did not make the arrangement for her to appear and did not make an ORAL CONTRACT for an agreed upon rate of pay. This agreement was made by the bar with a third person(acting as a booking agent). The bar/and or the third person are on the hook for paying her the full agreed upon amount--whatever that actually was. They agreed to a SPECIFIC amount they then have to pay it regardless of their opinion of the style of her show.

As to the people leaving--sounds as if the bar itself created this situation due to the ball game running so late and ball game people getting up and leaving. Problem created by the bar itself. The KJ tried to get things going--even doing as the bar said by playing fill music at thier request. KJ complied with thier requests and performed as best as possible under a unusually restricted schedule. The KJ is not completly to blame here. Sounds to me like the bar used her as a scapegoat and took the opportunity to cheat her of the agreed upon night's full pay.

You dont stiff a band if you dont like their style of singing. They are hired for X abount, they get paid X amount whatever the crowd does.

Same thing.

(Karen---did that horrible band you I and Flipper see at the Red Room get paid any less becuase they sucked and the crowd got up and cleared out--no they didnt??)

That is a RIP-OFF by the bar of this other KJ. But you are not at fault for this.

What you ARE AT FAULT for is ALLOWING someone else to make fill-in arangements for you and your own show.

YOU NEVER ALLOW someone else to make that deal for you.

YOUR GIG--YOU PROVIDE A FILL IN. You make pay arrangemets and you pay the sub yourself.

Take responsibility for providing your own fill-in and exercise some leadership and quality control.

This is where YOU failed in this situation.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Topher - Being that the bar made the agreement with her about pay in my mind she should be calling them not you. Thank you for explaining it further. I had a whole different picture in my mind about what happened. Let us know what happens.

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What is happening is that her and the guy she works for are calling me and texting me 8-10 times a day harassing me about this $75.00, threatening legal action, and being just plain nasty.

I'm not particularly scared by the threats, but it is a bit stressful. However, I'm not going to let them practically blackmail me into paying the $$$, either. I still contend that their issue is with the bar owner/manager.

Actually, it sounds like it would make a good People's Court or Judge Judy episode. That could be fun.

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C Mc
KJ, FL