Karaoke Forums

I do the insert singer method. I believe if you showed up you should sing at least one song. Sometimes it's too late and you're out of luck, wouldn't matter how I treat the rotation. I do make a "If you have a slip in you'll sing" announcement then cut of taking slips entirely.

When I have someone complain about me inserting singers I remember that person. When (there is an inevitable when) they come in late I ask them if they want to be treated as I treat new singers or should they go to the end of the rotation and be treated like they want new singers treated.

It's amazing how many folks don't mind it when they benefit from it.

I couldn't agree more with Bruce and his point is excellent about not bumping up those who arrive late just as you won't bump someone who has to leave early to get to work or to get the baby sitter home. And what is it with sitters that arrive @11pm?

If folks want to bar hop why should I be the one to stop them? Unless you're sitting a street with a large number of bars doing it I don't see it as a very valid method to stay ahead. In town here you're better off staying rather than waiting 20 minutes, driving to the next bar and waiting out the next smaller wait. Sure people barhop, but they aren't doing it to sing faster.

Barhopping to sing faster = Red Herring that doesn't exist except in the minds of some KJs

Find me a post on some forum somewhere where a singer says they do this as a regular way to get ahead in lines. Just one post making that genuine claim and I'll rescind my opinion here.

I start a night one of 2 ways.

Slow start - six to twelve people when I start. In that case all newcomers go at the end of the rotation. Early people sing more. One or two people come in at a time in a rotation. When the rotation gets big enough these people are added 6-10 people down the line making your extended wait maybe 6 minutes.

Busy night - I'll have 6- 12 people at start and as people come in they are included in the first rotation up til an hour. I usually have a lull somewhere between the first 45 minutes to an hour in that case the beginning of the second rotation starts. The people who were there early get to sing again first then I insert new people. So people who were there early get to sing more. Most of my crowd shows up the first hour then a few straggles here and there through the night, so at most inserting new singers prolongs your next sing 6-9 minutes, maybe not all. I think t makes the night more enjoyable than to have to wait through a lengthy time of new singers at the end of rotation.

I think Lon said it best. This works for me and the venue I work for, if it didn't I wouldn't have the crowds I do. People stay all night and don't bar hop. I tend to have karaoke singers that take karaoke very seriously. It's a friendly family karaoke feel. I consider my rotation fair and so do my patrons.

Lon and I don't have the bar hopper problem. Maybe that's why this doesn't work for you.

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Here's a question : Your 1st rotation has 8 singers and singer 1 knows he was first and singer 2 nows they are after #1 and so on.

Let's say singer 1 comes up and sings his song but does NOT give you a new song request. Singers 2-8 bring up their next request (sing one bring one). Now while singer 8 is singing you now have 7 requests for round 2 and 6 new people hand you slips. Now seeing the 6 new people sign up ..singer #1 brings his 2nd song up while singer 8 is finishing the 1st round .... WHERE DO YOU PUT #1

a) Are they #1 all night no matter when they hand in a request
b) Are they now # 14 cause they waited to hand in their song slip

Gryf is clearly from Missouri - the show me state. I beieve there others beside Bruce and myself who have seen bar hoppers who do so to "game" the rotations systems of KJ's who accomodate latecomers. I avoid such shows so I can't understand what benefit Lonman thinks he is getting from pissing off someone like Bruce?

In the last go around on this topic, Lisa mentioned her system which was intriguing: Ted just sang, Mary is singing now, newcomer Ralph just put in his slip. So Lisa would put Ralph in after Ted in the next round. That way Ralph just waits one full round to sing and not just a half a round (unfair to early singers) or a round and a half (long wait for Ralph).

The only problem I saw with her method would be with those singers who are used to always following the same person as the order would change through the night. But if it was a consistant system, it seems like people would get used to it and it seems fair.

I may answer this much differently than most because I have so many regulars.

On most nights I have 80% regulars. I keep index cards with all their songs. When I see them I pull their card and add it to the rotation. I have a magnetic strip that I pin the cards to in a row.

How I handle this is - I save everyones turn in rotation. If you have an index card it stays in rotation until you leave or tell me you no longer want to sing. If someone new fills out a slip and sings their turn I'll put an X mark on the slip and save their spot. If I don't get a slip before their next turn I take them out. This way everyone keeps their turn. I don't mind if I get a pile of slips at one time, they sing one bring one, or they hand me one right before their turn.

My customers like this because they don't have to put to much thinking effort into the night. They know who they sing after and don't worry they'll loose a turn.

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Do the patrons know where the end of the rotation is?

If you are putting people at the end of the rotation wouldn't that mean that if a new singer hands you a slip it's after that last singer sang? So either way you are inserting new singers within a rotation.
That's means potentially anyone could have a new singer put in front of them, any way you do your rotation.

My people know they may have a new singer added before them, but they also know it will only be one person. So if for most the night they sang after Bob they know now they will only have to wait one more song then their up.

If you make the end of your rotation after the same person all night. I'd hate to be that person. You'd have all the new singers singing before you all night. You'd never know when you were up.

I guess the question I have is - if you do your rotation so new people are added at the end of rotation is your rotation after the same person all night or is it after the last person who sang ? If it's after the same person all night a new singer could come in right before he sang. That doesn't seem fair. If it's after the last person who sang no one would be safe from having a new person inserted before them. right?

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I probably didn't explain it as well as she did--in fact I had to draw a picture of it last time to understand it myself. But yes, there is no way around the fact that early singers will have a longer wait as the rotation grows--I don't see any system to eliminate that. It is just that with the Lisa system, the new singer waits exactly one round before they sing--they don't sing before the people who just sang get in their second song but they don't have to hear people sing twice before they get one turn, either.

The other thing I've found is that the first and last hours are USUALLY the sparsest. So if you are a singing fanatic and you come early and stay for the whole show, you usually have to endure a long wait during the peak hours but you can get in double turns early and late. I have been to shows where the wait might be an hour and a half at the peak and then near the end you get up every 5 singers. OR--they may have to run over just to get everyone in. You never know. It is not totally controllable and focussing on it too much ruins the fun for me (when I'm an audience/singer--when we are KJing of course fair rotation is always the focus.)

I have done the barhop thing, but only because the rotation was long. I would have hopped without singing if they told me it would be an hour or more until I sang.

I am just where I don't desire to sit through 2 hours of a rotation to get up there. Fortunately around here we don't have that situation very often.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

As long as you get a slip up before your next turn, then yes, they will still be number one. If they turn it in after what wouldn've been their next turn, then they are out of luck for that round & the song they handed in will go toward their next spot.
This is all printed in the rules at the show as well as the rotation policy.

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Because I am NOT going to change my entire rotation structure to accomodate one person's thought on this. I have ran my show this way for 16 years successfully. Even others like Matt who do not like the insert method has been to my shows several time & thoroughly enjoyed themselves. If someone like Bruce wants to miss out on a good show, then so be it. I am paid to get people up to sing. If I did as was suggested & make the late comers wait - I know for a fact our manger & bar owner would not like that, as these are our regular customers too & they also know they get off work late. Hell I got the staff from an entire bar that close up sometimes before 12 & come to our show after work. Sometimes they get there in time, sometimes not.
So I guess the benefit is trying to make the majority happy and regular customers (early birders & latecomers alike) & not worry about the few that gripe about someone getting stuck in front of them that come in later while you have already sung a couple songs by now & when your next one is coming up again anyway! I try to maximize how many someone sings.
I do try to keep couples together as well & not add singer between them if possible.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Well I don't piss of people who like my method of rotation and as a result have a very solid, stable group singing with me.

Upshot is showing me someone who uses the theory in practice would go a long way to determining the conditions that allow that to occur. Right now all I hear is theory. I can make a rule that I will get singers up right away if they bring in a receipt from McDonalds stating they consumed an elephant ear sandwich. I find that about as likely as someone successfully hopping from bar to bar around here just to sing more than a single place would allow. As a result I do nothing to combat people from bringing in that Elephant Ear sandwich receipt or the nefarious bar hopping rotation exploit.

You can see Mcky say he hops from places where he's waiting for 2 hours. Would he stay, have a beer and sing of the wait were 1 hour? Would Bruce and the rest of you get up and hop to somewhere you are going to get put to the bottom of the list because they run the rotation that suits you? That moves you up the rotation in what manner?

Im over here in the UK where i live we have alot of people working shifts and dont arrive untill 1030 to 11-00 we finish at 12 at one gig so if i was to stick them at the end after the people who have sang maybe 3 to 5 songs fepending on the night as been up until then they would never get to sing and not bother comming again.

In the final analysis, someone is going to have to wait; actually, everyone is going to have to wait. It's just a matter of whom, and for how long. The KJ knows his/her audience, has the control, and can therefore satisfy their wants according to what he/she is comfortable with. Like any issue, there are always two sides. And in many cases as in this one each has its merits and its disadvantages. It should be said that one person’s merit is another’s disadvantage.

So what are we to do?

From a KJ’s point of view, Respect! You don’t have to agree, just respect. For the most part you’re working your own show and therefore won’t be singing at that other KJ’s show anyway so why should you care?

From a singer’s point of view, if you don’t like the way a rotation is handled, go somewhere else.

I once read the following quote but could not find out who the source was:
“If you don’t like something, change it. If you can’t change it, change the way you think about it”

And as for me, when you give me your request slip, that’s when you’re added to the end. And that’s what works best for my clients and me.

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EveningStar Entertainment & Events
JR & Michele LaPorte
Peoria, AZ

Again let's look at this, you're first rotation is 12, before that ends 5 more people walk in so they're 13,14 15 etc, because it's the first rotation. Now in the second rotation you have 17. Now when you're at say number 15 and 5 more people come in, do you add them to the second rotation or cap it at 17 and insert them in the third rotation, which I believe Lonnie and Babs do along with me. You make them wait a bit so they buy something. Regardless of what method you use rotations 2, 3 etc everyone will get to sing their turn. The only time it may have an effect is at the end of the night.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Depending on where I am in the first rotation, they may become 13, 14, 15...however if I am on say singer number 11, I may insert those 5 new singers into the 2nd round. If i'm only on maybe number 6, then they would go to the end of the first round.

Yes.

Which any method can affect the end of the night as well.

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And whose problem is that?

When I go out to sing I go out to sing; I don't drink alcohol
I go early to the show that starts the earliest and when the rotation starts to fill in I head to the next show starting up and try to get there early as well. There are shows starting between 8 and 10 so I can sing until 2am

And if there are a bunch of singers at the last show, I'll leave and head to a show where they insert latecomers into the early part of the rotation

as Lonnie pointed out, I've been to his show. The man is a consumate professional, and hosts a perfect show.

I can agree to disagree with the insert method. I'm not saying I won't go to a show that does the insert method, but I'm honestly not happy with it. MOSTLY because the kjs that do it don't HONESTLY know HOW to do it effectively.

As Bruce has pointed out, it's the obvious error of when someone walks in after the show has gone on an hour or more, and within five to twenty minutes they get up to sing their first time, while you as the MORE spending individual has to wait even longer, longer now due to the fact that new singers are bumped in front of you.

I seen nothing wrong with the "line" method - imagine going to the butcher and pulling that stupid tag that says 76, and on the wall is a L.E.D counter saying "Now serving 68". You know you're after number 75! Pure and simple. Hey, they taught the line method and "no cutting in" back in Primary (Grade) School... pretty simplistic to wait your normal turn! Otherwise people get irate at preferred treatment.

And as it's been pointed out, singer #2 knows he follows singer #1... but if you an insert method, he won't be following singer #1 anymore... and it's confusing to the end customers.

My thoughts only, not trying to convince anyone else that my method is more accurate. But I was trained under the insert method, and formed this decision of mine based on input from singers and other KJs... and honestly, this works best for ME.