Karaoke Forums

Hello All,

I know you have a wealth of experience here, and I am trying to improve my system as much as possible, a little at a time. I realize my system is about as simple as it gets right now.

My wife sometimes has to set it up, so our current system is small and put together with portability in mind. It uses powered speakers. The bottom end is minimal, but enough for our small Karaoke shows. My gigs are primarily at small bars and lounges.

Here is what I currently have:

Laptop running Siglos Karaoke Pro
Yamaha MG 124CX mixer
2x Behringer B212A 400 watt powered 12" speakers (on stands)
1x Gemini GX-801 250 watt powered 8" 2 way (single floor monitor)

I am looking for something to help me tune my system. My main goal is to be able to crank up the speakers louder, and maintain sonic clarity without feedback. I have also done a few shows in a building with thick metal T-beam ceilings where the sound bounces everywhere. I am finding it is often hard for me to set the speakers in an ideal location with the nooks and crannies I have to work in these small bars.

I may invest in amp(s) and non-powered speakers in the future.

Would it be worth it to me to invest in a DBX Driverack PA+ with my current system? Is there a less-expensive piece I could get instead for now and upgrade later? Would a cheap feedback eliminator solve most of my problems for now?

Thanks for your suggestions!

The single biggest update you could get right now is the Driverack PA then a couple powered subs down the road. If you do not plan on running subs, then the Driverack PX would be a good investment. Subs would be a very nice addition for you as well.
Feedback eliminators aren't typically very good for much. You can do just as good with proper speaker placement, and volume levels.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

You don't mention one of the most important things in a system, the microphones. If you use cheap wireless ones, you can improve a lot with better ones. Feedback in particular should be better.


The cheapest thing you can get is a basic equalizer. For $100.00 or so used you can get a dual 31-band eq that should allow you to improve the sound. But that is going to be limited in its effect.

But ultimately, the goal should be to improve your speaker setup. Those speakers are a bit small to get much volume from for rock and hard-driving country music. They will sound a lot better if you aren't spending a lot of the power reproducing lows.

My buy would be a powered sub like the Carvin LS1801NA, along with the DriveRack PA to provide equalization and crossover. This costs more, of course, but would be useful with your long-term goal of good passive speakers and an amp.

Strongly discourage you from the "feedback eliminator". No one I know thinks they are really worth much.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Certainly no expert here but my first thought was a speaker update.

I would stick with the powered speakers, going to be hard to upgrade with minimal funds unless you can some money out of the ones you have now.

Regarding the sub, I have the Carvin, I love it. However someone told me within the last week that the Cerwin Vega 1000 watt sub was on sale somewhere for $700. The Carvin is 700 watts and can be had for less than $600. I'm in a small bar but I was told Saturday night they could hear it two blocks away with the doors closed.


.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

Lonman and Mickey are giving you good advice, but honestly, I think an EQ is a big waste of money considering your board has an nice on board EQ for each channel.

I use a BBE 882I Sonic Maximiser, and I promise it will make those behringer speakers sound much better, and it is SUPER easy to use.

At the beginning of the night, you put on a quality track setting your board EQ knobs to the neutral position. You have two control knobs for each channel. One controls low contour frequencies, and the other mids and highs. Adjust for the room and forget about it!

Easy to hook up too. Run the board stereo out to the BBE instead of your speakers, and plug the speakers into the BBE. Done.

An EQ can be a pain to adjust for the room, especially for a beginner. You can accomplish virtually the same effect with the BBE.

It also helps with the vocals!

Quality mics make all the difference in the world. What are you using???

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Just remember, your system is no better than its weakest link.

Mojo

If feedback is your main problem right now, some kind of equalizer is in order; and probably not the primitive one on your channel strips.

The "feedback destroyers" that simply guess and cut things are probably going to give you poor results, but I like the Behringer FBQ2496 because it also functions as a 20 band, 2 channel parametric equalizer. It really is a superior tool to a graphic equalizer if you spend some time learning to use it.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Channel strip EQ's are no replacement for a house EQ (i.e. one that operates on your final mix). A good stereo EQ was going to be my first suggestion as well. Its amazing how much you don't get out of a decent system when you don't have the ability to EQ the final mix. If you're looking to improve overall system performance, some form of House EQ is in order. If you can swing the price for one (usually around $350) the Driverack PA that Lonman suggests is great. Not only does it give you a house EQ but also compression, effects, a crossover and so much more. Of course then you've got to learn how to use all that and final mix compression is no replacement for compression on each vocal channel (but then that's built into your console already). If the price on the driverack PA is too steep, you can get a pretty good 31 band stereo EQ for $100-150. Even a 15 band Stereo EQ would be sufficient to get improvements.

If your problems are more specific to vocal audio quality, then as suggested look at switching to higher quality microphones. Shure SM58's are kind of an industry standard at this point. most production companies use them and almost all at least own a few. Remember, garbage in garbage out. As covered earlier, better microphones will have more background rejection and therefore are less susceptible to feedback.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Thank you so much for everyone's great advice. I have ordered a Driverack PA+ and I am deciding on a single powered sub to start with.

I see ZZounds has the JBL JRX118SP b-stock on sale for an unbelievable $490, but they are heavier and have less wattage than the Carvin 1801NAs (@$550). What are your thoughts on the JBLs vs. the Carvins?

Even though I may eventually add passive speakers I think I am going to stay with powered subs. That way I can still get a true tri-amp system with only 2 amps in the rack.

As for mics, I use Behringer XM8500s for my bang-around mics, a Senheiser E845, and an EV microphone. I only use corded mics.

I might invest in some SM58s after I recover from this financial outlay.

Between the two choices you list the Carvin LS1801NA, gives you 400 more watts, a Neodymium speaker with a four inch voice coil, vs. the three inch of the JBL and comes in 12 to 16 pounds lighter (depending on which source you believe) in virtually the same size cabinet. They both give you a high pass line out but if your going to be using a Driverack that won't be an issue for you. The JBL is rated @ 123 db while the Carvin is rated @ 128db. Although neither are exactly Sub Woofer dynamo's the Carvin wins in this match up. The JRX series JBL's are pretty much entry level. I believe Ripman8 uses the Carvin sub, ask him how he likes it.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I would also go with the Carvin, like LondonLive says.

On the microphones, I think you are probably good for now. If you put the 845 out it is certainly a good mic, but it is a supercardioid and you may find that some singers who don't hold the mic pointed at their mouth may have some troubles. If the EV mic is a CO9 that would be a good one to use.

The combination of the more tolerant cardioid pickup, extreme durability, and inexpensive grille replacement of the SM58 make it a great mic for karaoke. You can sometimes find used ones on Craigslist for $60 or even lower, and even if they have a dented ball you just buy some new ones from audiopile.net for $5.00 each and they look like new.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Agree the Carvin subs are much better than the JBL in this match up. I've used Carvin products - my band's sound tech had an entire Carvin PA from the mixers, amps, processors & speakers/monitors - 4 dual 18" subs & 4 dual 15" cabs FOH. The sound was killer!
You won't have a 'true tri-amped' system as the top cabs are only being driven by one amp but internally crossed over with a passive system. You will have a three way speaker setup (probably what you meant). A tri-amp system would mean an amp on the sub (built in) & a separate amp to the high frequency horn & another amp to the 15" driver in the top cabs.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Thanks Lonman,

Actually, what I had in mind (down the road), was the ability to get a passive speaker for the tops with bi-amp inputs, like a Peavey SP2 or Carvin LS1503, and running a smaller amp to the tops and a larger amp to the mids. The Driverack PA+ would handle the crossovers. The subs would have their own amp built in.

Is that a tri-amp system or just a 3-way system?

If I didn't need all the power in a smaller venue, or one of the amps gave out on me, I could use the full-range speaker inputs on the mains. One amp could handle the mains as full-range while sending the lows to the subs.

Your sound would be improved greatly by a BBE 362 sonic maximizer. You should be able to get one for about $70-80 on ebay.

The only thing about the BBE 362 is that you'll want to eventually replace that with a Driverack PA, so if you can afford the Driverack, go ahead and get that. It does the same thing the BBE 362 does, but does it better, and does about 4-5 other really important functions that will improve your sound AND protect your system (compression, channel limitors, crossover, EQ, etc., etc.)

I got my Driverack PA used on EBay for $230.00. They are very well built, so as long as you can find one that you trust that has been racked, you can find a good deal.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Thanks TopherM,

I went ahead and ordered the Driverack PA+ with an RTA mic. I should be getting it in a week or so.

Yes then it would be a tru tri-amped 3 way system.
As far as power goes, you can never have too much. Even in smaller rooms, all that would happen is you would have a nice full sound without having to turn the system up as much as you would with less power.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

It is possible to have too much bulk/weight, though! Keep transportation in mind as you are buying things. If you have a sedan or small SUV you might not want a rack of amps and such to cram in there or make multiple trips with to set your stuff up. If you have a big van or trailer, though, you don't have to worry so much.

I have been to some pretty small reception halls, too; and it's a pain when you show up and they expect you to be able to set your stuff up in 20 square feet of floor space. I have wished I had some kind of combination speaker/light poles a few times lately, and one of these days maybe I will figure out how to make some.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

I will keep size and weight in mind. I used to need a table for setup, or bring my own fold up table.

Now, for that very reason I chose a lightweight SKB Mighty Gigrig to fit everything into, with a gigwing side table for my laptop. It comes up to the perfect height when set up. I have a small LCD stand for singer monitor. Theoretically, I could grab a chair and have everything I need, working right off the rack.

The Mighty Gigrig is double deep, so I could use the front 6u for electronics, and the back 6u for drawers for my cables and mics.