Karaoke Forums

what's that got to do with ANYTHING? I'm about sick of your postering about serving. You don't see any of us other vets doing this on a constant basis.

There's nothing illegal about what that guy is doing.

Being a vet has nothing to do with it. It takes federal legal proceedings to question confisticate or enforce anything suspected of copyright investigations. This is federal If you have ever had any experience with fed investigations you would realize this. A PI can not prove anything or offer anything in a court of law. I would like to know whose side you are on.

If what you are rooting for passes and is publicized all of our work to improve the reputation would be for for naught Bar owners would shy away from karaoke which they already do due to henchmen collecting moneys which grow yearly. Piracy did not kill the industry. Greed and lawsuits were a major factor not to mention poor marketing tecniques. blatantly threataning their customer base and blaming them for their woes..

OK lets go do it Bust about 3 KJ'S and sue the hell out of them. Publicice it nationwide and let the general public in on it. Do you really think it will have any positive effect or improve the situation? If you do please explain your hypothesis. and reasoning. I really think you people have been watching too much TV and movies.

In this area singers, bar owners and the general public know who the pirates are as you call them and the established hosts around still control the market. If you are having trouble with pirates then I suggest you reexamine your tactics instead of pointing fingers and bitching. If you have a legal library then sell that feature. These are bad times and the gov and big business has control as usual. They enjoy watching the peasants bicker amongst themselves.

As per usual I am not sitting here guessing or forming opinions from rumors or things read here. Neither am I in a fantasy land and dream of getting even with those dastardly pirates who havent bothered me or my business.

There are many factors affecting the decline of clubs, bars and hosting opportunities but this forum has a mania about pirates. You are sick? I am tired of this mania and people giving false legal advice and spreading rumors that the corps started in the first place.

When can I get it in your head that even in a civil lawsuit proof must be established that there was distribution and financial loss incurred? There is none............Selling the preloaded hard drive is illegal and can be proven.........

BTW the true pirates have devised methods by which at the first sign of trouble the evidence is gone.

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I am not doing anything illegal either but what is this crap he can threaten others but I cant stand up and threaten him? BS

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Not sure what planet you're on, but I have on several occassion testified and brought evidence to court, proving or disproving cases. Sorry you're way off base there.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

exactly.

Any citizen can report suspected illegal activities into the authorities. But the first step COULD be ((and I've done this myself on a couple of occassions)) just asking, "Can you prove the ownership of these by showing the discs, say by next week?" Some people who have such serious collections are suspect. Others when they have a lot of discs I know to be rare, let alone out of print.

I'm not right all the time. I called one company on it, and they proved them. I immediately retracted what I had to say. They had only been in business under the current name for a few years, so when I went to their show and saw 20,000 tracks, my first reaction was "B.S."

They bought their collection from a couple of KJs that quit. And they had the discs to prove it.

What side I'm on? MY side. These illegal libraries are killing us. I can't get a gig in this town because of it. Nor can other companies that are staples n this area.

With the company I'm talking about, they had NO problems proving their legality. In fact, they jumped on it, wanting to prove to everyone that I was full of it, and most importantly, that they were indeed legal.

ANYBODY that's legal shouldn't have any problem providing proof to someone that asks. They don't HAVE to. That's up to the copyright authorities, if they ever figure that out. But having a solid reputation already established before they HAVE to??? That to me is a credible fact that can follow you to court in your favor IF it ever comes to that.

That guy mentioned on the Myspace site may not be right, but anybody can hire a private investigator. If the investigator is legit, they have to follow the law, or risk having his license revoked.. Again, if you're legal you HAVE NOTHING to worry about an investigation or even the threat of it.

I think the reason there is so much on the forum about pirates is because no one really wants to get a job by reporting someone but there is little in place to protect a person's business against them. And I agree with karaoker on the point about it only making the reporting KJ look bad and making a bar owner suspicious of them. So it is a frustration and "venting" here is about all we can do.

The other frustration is the intimidation from other KJs who say if you are good enough, pirates won't affect your business. But what I have seen is a person may know a bar owner personally or be an employee and they are able to start up karaoke at the venue cheaply by copying a hard drive. So that is another job lost to a legitimate business. They are not necessarily bad hosts, either, so all things being equal they have more songs for less money.

I think everyone has sympathy for the little guy shade tree carpenter just starting out on a shoestring and offering a lesser service for those who can't afford the big guys but would we have that same sympathy if he was stealing his wood?

I have yet to have a bar owner ask "How many songs do you have?" The #1 question is "How big is your following?"

Yeah there are 3 or 5 guys with big hard drives, pirates as ya'll call them here, in the area and they move around the same ring of bars as the owners attempt to "try something new" and get the same quality show as before. They undercut and get the gig but the bar doesn't realize any gain.

Far from killing my business I get plenty of singers coming to my shows instead of their shows. Funny thing is when one of them started nearby to my main venue I had a couple of my regulars visit and tell the folks there about my show. As a result the ranks in my show swelled quite a bit and the bar down the way stopped moved Karaoke from Tuesday night to Wednesday night.

The bar owner has been talking to me about doing Wednesday for him because the "pirate" doesn't bring in the same business as I do on a Wednesday. However I am standing firm on my price. He's not used to someone not accepting the $100-$150 range for a show and asking $250 is quite unheard of for him. It's not worth schleping things around for less IMO since I'm quite comfortable now.

So far from damaging I think 'pirate' shows expose more folks to the medium and when those folks hear of something better they are certainly willing to stay. Virtually anything that gives people more exposure to the craft is a good thing and once people know there is even a decision to be made then they can choose what shows they like to go to. Yes, it does make business a bit more difficult, but it does make the guys who stand out as hosts shine quite a bit more.

The answer is A) no they can't.

and

B) It never has.

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At $450 a day, that's a serious investment in resources, with no foreseeable means of recovering the money. I doubt that claim very much.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Anyone who has materiel evidence to offer in a case, be it civil or criminal, can testify.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

We feel the song crunch nightly as we are just starting out and only have 5000. One local host belongs to a download club and has tens of thousands of songs. So even though we keep a request list and order each month, it is still an inconvenience to singers who are used to having everything. There were also some long time hosts in the area who quit updating and some of the singers complained to the venue owner so number of songs HAS been mentioned to us as a plus.

I think a legitimate karaoke host could whet an appetite for karaoke as well as a pirate. Good competition might even be better for karaoke than bad competition that gives karaoke a bad name (even though not all pirates are necessarily bad hosts but in our area, the ones who were cheap about getting their songs also have cheap sound but it was the norm so no one knew any different.)

I understand that no one (inculding myself, chicken) wants to be the one to turn in pirates but I can't understand the feeling that they are ok, easily beatable and possibly even good for business. If you are just starting out or are new to an area and can't bring your following from the other side of the country than a pirate that knows the business people better is going to take some time to beat. People who cheat in one area may also lie or badmouth and often get away with it for a long time. I guess we are so used to corrupt politicians, corporations, etc. that now we just think all is fair in love, war and business.

Yes, the number 1 question for me has been, "Do you have a Following?". But, I have also been asked how many songs I have, and when I say about 8,000, and they respond that this other guy has over 25,000 songs, I just simply respond back, "While it may be impressive that this person has that may songs, my general experience at Karaoke is that a lot of the people like to sing t he same songs week after week with very little variety. And while that isn't always the case, the bottom line is, in a 4 hour show, the average amount of songs sung will be approximately 60.... whether you have 8,000 songs or 80,000 songs available to choose from."

I work in a heavily crowded karaoke market. 5 times a week. I've got 100 thousand song hard drives, and 5000 disk collections all around me.

Its not a problem. I go to karaoke.com every Saturday religiously when their store is open going through the bargain bin looking for little treasures. I'm always buying disk collections (REAL ONES) from people. Although this happens less now that I'm trying to weed out dups. When I first started out I got 170 legends disks from a KJ widow for $150!! I got almost all of the sound choice bricks NEW for less than a grand from karaoke.com

I got a whole bunch of sound choice 8100 series discs from a another guy who wasn't a KJ, but just collected the music for $400. He was in a financial pinch and needed the money.

In the last 3 years my disc collection has grown to over a thousand disks!

I've so slowly, collected almost all the original DK, paying anywhere from $9 to $25 a disk.

My songbook says I've got over 20k in songs, but I know a lot of that is dups so I've spent a lot of time editing it.

I also download on request a lot from SBI, Karaoke version, Tricerasoft, etc. Who needs 100,000 songs to be competitive with a pirate? I've found SBI to be quite good. Why bother to have tens of thousands of songs that nobody really sings, when you can get on demand the actual songs people are interested in??? Makes complete sense to me.

Getting 20k in songs isn't that hard, but it does take a LOT of time. Now, I do do this exclusively for a living, so I guess I have the time to find this stuff unlike many here who have "real jobs"... .

That said, knowing how much time its taken me just to get this many songs, 100k songbooks are the ones that always catch my eye. Especially when the guy or gal is new on the scene. You just KNOW something ain't right there.

Business is business, however. While is certainly isn't right, there is little that I can or should do about it. Even if you walked into the FBI office tomorrow with conclusive proof that that KJ is using pirate material, little come of it. Law enforcement is overwhelmed, and the expense of bringing legal action is prohibitive.

The amount of money in legal fees the record companies put out to sue that one woman was insane, and they are never going to get from her the money they were awarded. Why do you think they stopped?

Its good to vent, and I guess that's what we're doing here.

My personal experience with bar owner is that they do realize they get what they pay for. I've had KJs come behind me and try to undercut me. The problem is the bar owners like me, their customers like me, and I've got a decent enough following that they don't see any reason to take a chance with an unknown.

I read about what others have experienced, and I'm so grateful that's never happened to me.

What's the solution? I think for the most part, the way music is sold now, karaoke or otherwise, will have to change. ASCAP is getting greedy, and I have a feeling that will come back to bite them on the A$$. They want the cell companies to pay them royalties now, everytime a phone rings in public with one of their songs... can you believe this??? Eventually, some ruling from the court will come down, and it will directly or indirectly resolve a lot of these issues... I hope for the better.

Until them, I go forward. I work hard, keep MY nose clean, and try to make karaoke a fun experience for everyone.

That's all this 'ol Koyote can do.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

Well to start...I HAVE NEVER WORKED a show on Marco Island. Soooo you MUST be talking about someone else.
I apoligize for my math mistake. But I still strongly belive in reinvesting back into your show.

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[font=Cursive]Don't Just Stand There.....SING something![/font]

The key is keeping up to date with new songs. A good Chartbusters subscription is a start and keeping an eye on Sunfly in the UK for those European only releases is a good idea too. Want a singer to love you? Simply take the time to get them *their* special song.



My observation is folks who take the shortcut don't take the time to learn to run the crowd and get a feel for sound. A lot of guys hear they can make a couple of bucks a night in a bar and run out and get everything on the cheap including their music and play at places who aren't committed to putting the resources into making the night a success. I've seen a good host to leave a venue because of a pay dispute, have the cheap guy come in for 3 months and have the venue hire the old on back for more money than before. Being a host with that reputation is the way to be.



It's more a matter of what you can expect. The lawn guys have to do this same thing over and over again. Someone comes in, undercuts them and everyone drives on. The world is cut throat and if you're not ready for the dark seedy underbelly stay away from it. Acknowledging it and venting here is certainly the way to go about it. Expecting it to change is simply unrealistic but it's nice to have a sympathetic ear and hear all sides of the debate

I think you are right, Koyote. I get so angry when I am trying to find a song for someone, and every single disk I find it on has a bunch of other stuff I don't need. This wasn't such a problem when I started my show, because I needed a lot of stuff. Now, it is so hard for me. I, like you, have FINALLY accumulated a nice, not the best, but nice, library. So when I can't find a disk I'm willing to spend $15 for, I go to the "buy by the song" sources. Now, I'm finding out that they can't always be proven to be legal. Besides the fact that their selection of songs only includes the most popular songs. If I'm looking for something a little less popular, I have to buy the disk. Then there are the disks you can buy in which you pick the songs. I have never once attempted to order one of these disks that they had every song I was looking for. Especially now. Now when I am looking for a song, this is a waste of my time, usually. Take Sound Choice, for example. I was looking for "Meet Me With Your Black Drawers On", by Gloria Hardiman. I found it on one SC disk, of course with a bunch of other songs I didn't need. They didn't have it as a choice for the pre-made disks, and the disk was almost $30!! I bought it, because it was a song I wanted for myself. But I don't understand, if SC makes the song, why not make it available conveniently? If you can buy mp3s from itunes or Rhapsody, etc. for $.99 a piece, karaoke companies could do the same thing. And they are making the copyright laws so complicated, it is ridiculous. Music companies are gouging the crap out of people, especially those of us trying to run legitimate businesses. Right now, I'd like to get another system running and hire a KJ to run it for me, but I can't afford it. Not if I have to re-buy every disk I've ever bought all over again. And if I start running another show in my town, people expect it to be just as good as mine. I would be embarrassed for a customer to say, "Why don't you have that song here? You have it in the other bar." Besides the fact that it would take me so long to start making any money from it. It's taken me years already to get my show what it is today. Venues in my town don't want to pay much over $100-$150 a show. If I charge more than that, they won't hire me anyway.

There's been mention on the forum several times, that pirating will eventually lead to the extinction of karaoke. I would also like to give some of the credit for that to the karaoke manufacturers' reluctance to get with the times and make buying our music a little more cost-effective and less difficult.

To add to that, I try my best to maintain a legal business (I am scared not to; too many people out there trying to stab someone else) but I would never question another KJ, DJ, entertainer, PERIOD, about the legality of their business, unless I'm ready to start bit***** really loud to the music industry. And I'm too busy working my butt off to make end's meet for that.

First of all the manufacturers are not making the Copyright laws complicated. They (the honest ones) are trying to abide by them. They don't make the law.

Second, if you want to run a second rig, then yes you have to buy music all over again for it. Even the format shift people will agree on that. One set of music per rig. Two rigs, two sets of music, five rigs, five sets, etc.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

The multiriggers are just going to takr one set of music from 1 hard drive and add it to another, I think. That way they won't have to pay for more music. I run strictly cdg's and nothing else at my shows.

I just had a one off, running two shows on one night, I split my 1 to 1 ratio HDD in two, half the songs at one venue, the other half at the other! No one disc is available at both shows unless I have 2 copies of that disc (some I do!) As a result there are some songs that people have wanted to sing that I didn't have at that venue. Similarly, my guy at the other venue had the same thing. My guy doing the one off show did so well that they have made him a permanent fixture.

I have a play history of all songs played in the last 2 years and I'll be investing a lot into getting those across both rigs. I have WiFi at my venue so I can put all the Sunfly discs on his rig, leave them in both books and then download the dupes as needed.

There are hosts here who multi rig or who partially multi rig (where they have 1-1 on some songs and 1-4 on others.) It does make it more challenging to compete but the decent mics, speakers, monitors, displays and my hosting software with both touch-screen and conventional songbooks tied into an online database and website all make up for it.

There is so much more to running a show than pressing play, I have a show where a (self confessed) pirate runs at the same venue on another night. I get paid more and get more compliments.

I would love the industry to get rid of pirates but until then I will continue to tilt the playing field back in my favor by offering what they can't or won't.


Jonn

... Or anyone else, Koyote. There ya have it.

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