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I make $250.00 for 4 hrs..and this is in just a small unimportant kansas town...so...

What does "old world term" mean?

What does it means when a term is defined to be "bloated"?

I can only assume that you are implying that the concept of Fair Market Value will disappear when the term is eradicated? When you make your next major purchase (home, car, home entertainment system) will you be unconcerned about the FMV and pay exactly what the first seller that you encounter asks for the product? Fair market value is not a concern to you and will be ignored. Right? Ignoring FMV will allow the seller to make a living and you agree that you should pay the seller whatever he charges?

Ok, I suspect the guy was in a bad mood over something and vented his anger at us.
I for one am big enough to let it go.

Hmmm. Fair Market Value.
I have seen Care workers looking after learning dissabilities.
They work their butts off for minimum wage.
Is that fair.
I have watched a football player run round a pitch, kick a ball a few times fall over a few times, then get in his Limo and drive home.
Is that fair.
Is a Movie star more tallented than a doctor.

Just what does Fair Market Value refer to...

"Fair Market Value (FMV)" is a basic economic concept that indicates what an informed individual would be willing to pay for any particular product or service where there is a known market for that product or service. Original, one of a kind, artwork, for example, will usually lack a fair market value since beauty (value) is in the eye of the beholder.

A home, a car, an entertainment center definitely has a fair market value, as does an hour of plumbing. Truthfully, we've seen the FMV for some major purchases shift dramatically at times, and the uninformed could overpay if a dramatic shift happens quickly.

Nonetheless, buyers determine FMV. And so long as there are intelligent owners of establishments that see a value in our KJ services, we will be paid for those services. And while few KJ's make as much today as was typically paid for our services 10 years ago, only a very few of us exist in a market where $75 is the going rate. And most of us, I imagine, would leave the business of doing public venues if all they paid was $75?

Sorry mate, I know I asked that.
I was actually trying to say something else.

I earn £75 GBP for 4 hours on a saturday night.
I think I am worth more.
I think a paramedic is worth more than me.

What I am trying to say is how fair is Fair market value.
To some extent it is what the media tell us it is.
An Art critic values art that others find worthless.

What I mean is... We dont decide do we.
It is always someone else.
Sorry, I often have trouble typing what I am thinking.

Yes we DO participate in determining FMV. But I can't answer for you what is "fair"!

If you don't think a product or service is worth what the provider is asking you won't buy it. If you further decide that you really don't need the particular product or service you're not likely to look any further for providers of that product or service. You won't buy it and what is "fair" remains somewhat unanswered

If, however, you decide you absolutely NEED the product or service you will find yourself more inclined to pay what others are paying for it in order to purchase that product or service.

I recently paid a handyman $80 to do a plumbing job and I provided the parts. I could have done the job in an hour or less, but my wife wanted me to hire someone. I agreed with her request and was happy about the decision until I learned that it took the fellow fifteen minutes to complete the work!

A few weeks later I was in Home Depot to undertake another plumbing job and casually complained to the clerk about that incident. As a retired plumber he told me he wouldn't do the job for less than $150, including parts!

So, what is the FMV for that work? I could do it myself for $0, the handyman took $80 and the plumber wanted $150, including $20 worth of parts. It seems to me that whatever I was willing to pay became the FMV in that transaction/situation!

The problem with FMV is this --- Years ago the FMV for a 4 hour Karaoke show may have been $250. But when KJ's start to take gigs at $225 and then $200 and lower and lower until a bottom of about $100 ..it brings the entire VALUE DOWN

The industry has to ask for higher wages and give superior services at the same time ..This bring the market up

OR

You can create a KJ shortage by eliminating all other kj's in your area which will also drive up the DEMAND and PRICE

Break it out like the medical industry does.........

4 hour show..........

Kj................ 15.00 per hour $60.00
$35,000 song library 4 hours $60.00
$10,000 mobile sound system $60.00
gas travel overhead etc, $60.00
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total price for 4 hour show .......$240.00 FMV

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

Hmmm Eliminate the opposition.

There's a thought.

stlmusican, you probably play piano. They are always cry babies from my dealings with them.

As a musican you should realise you only want to play with other talented musicians. Once you reach a certain point your group will require a sound man. The sound man will become an equal partner of the group. He will attend every practice and will know each song as well as anyone else in the group. He will get equal money.

As KJs we are trained soundmen (women) I will put my skills up against any other sound person. It takes more than what you think. Just as you couldn't do a show without a sound person that knows what they are doing. My show requires a trained sound person to be as successful as it is.

Just because i don't fit into "your" definition as a "real musician" doesn't mean i am any less talented. For the record i do play guitar and keyboards.

Corporate greed ruined the country, not labor unions. Labor unions fought to keep the jobs in our countrry when the CORPORATIONS went overseas with the good paying jobs. The unions lost. Coroprate greed won. Mexico, India, Japan and China have the good paying Americam jobs. Not labor Unions anymore.

Get all your facts straight before you mouth off about something you know nothing about..

PLEASE EXCUSE THIS FURTHER HIJACKING OF THIS THREAD

You are absolutely right Angel. Union greed ruined the country. The union officers take the dues money and do what they want with it. The union officers make deals with the employer to solidify the officers' position in the scheme of things. The union officers coerce members to vote in public elections they way they want the members to vote even if it's not in the best interest of the individual member. The union officers don't care that the company can have the same product produced locally by a non-union shop, or even more cheaply overseas.

Oh, wait. I got what you said backwards!


So let me simply put matters in this perspective. How much equipment would you own if you had to buy it all from companies that make the entire product in the United States and how much would it cost? $30,000? $40,000

How much would a color TV monitor cost? How about your computer(s)? Your CDG player? Your speakers? The rest of your equipment?

NOW BACK TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED THREAD

FMV an old world term? You speak like a Communist StlMusician.. We all charge for our services what we think they are worth in the particular market we are in. i DJ car shows and if DJ A charges $150, and DJ B charges $250, I might wiggle in there at about $200. Car show DJing is close to what KJs charge in this area. Now if some guy wants to do a car show at $75 and try to undercut us with his cheesy home stereo set up and collection of oldie tapes and CDs, he's not going to last long. If he presents himself as someone who has decent equipment, and good personality, we as a whole might persuade him to align his prices to reflect the average.

If it weren't for unions everyone would be lucky to make minimum wage.

If stlm is a good musician he could join the musicians union and get union scale no matter where he played. That's what the union does. Gets you what you are worth.

I never listened to what the union said when they wanted us to always back a democratic party person.

I consider the union dues i pay as an insurance policy. That policy included my health care and my vacation pay, pension, holidays and weeks off. It included my sub pay when i was laid off. It includes a fair wage and protection from jerks that think they are better than everyone else and can do anything because you work there. I said work there, not a slave or indentured servent.

Non union workers that get paid at or very close to union scale wouldn't come close to that wage without the union negotiating and making the wage as high as it is. Do you seriously think your boss would pay you $15-18-20 an hour if there were no unions in this country? Think again. You would be kissing his A&& everyday just to work for peanuts.

Over the years it's a tossup to who screwed us more our international union or the company. But i would never work in any industry without a union if at all possible too many good things have come from unions. Do you like forced overtime. Unpaid holidays. Unpaid vacation time. No medical benefits. No pension. You must.

Unions started because Andrew Carnegie wanted his employees to be low paid almost slave labor. Read about him and get educated on the subject. See why people died to get a union to be protected from the likes of corporate greedy business owners. Then come back and have an informed discussion.

I like and enjoy the fruits of my union.

Corporate greed sent jobs away from America. Unions fought to keep them here. Everyone of them. No union ever said send all the good paying jobs across the ocean. We don't need them or want them. We like working for nothing and watching our country die. Get educated on how your bread gets buttered.

We don't need to. Eventually, people who undercharge 1) go out of business or 2) start charging more as they realize they aren't making enough money to justify the work and the risk.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

"If it weren't for unions everyone would be lucky to make minimum wage."

WOW, MrD can't believe it.....this is a 100% true statement, like or dislike unions!

So, out shopping for new gigs...

Q: how much do you charge? A: $175
Q: is that for both nights? A: (Give them the, "Are you Serious look", in response to the same look the owner/manager just gave me) Ummm, NO that would be per night!

The $50-75 a night KJ must be poplular.

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[highlight=midnightblue]MrD - KJ/DJ Specialist
Visit MrD on facebook - mrdsentertainment
& on myspace - larrynance[/highlight]

A lot of good that insurance policy did in the auto sector and other sectors of the economy. Yep great insurance policy. How many lost jobs?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

From my own experience 90% of the musicians worked for peanuts. For example if played backup in a studio they were paid $25-$50 tops.

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I work for a percentage of the gross sales. The place I work at has a very simple method of calaculating total sales. My minimum is $100 (3) hrs, and I split gross sales up to $400 (my take would then be $200), and anything above $400 I get 30% more of. A $600 gross sales night would net me $260. They also let us have anything on the menu for free. I have had several $300+ evenings. The place holds 100 people and at only $10 a head that would gross $1000. The owner is very happy with this agreement....and so am I.

I have never stayed for only (3) hrs because if everyone is having fun (and buying food and drinks) why would I shut down early? I always try to finish the rotation regardless of where I am in the rotation. I have more loyal singers than you can imagine as a result of letting everyone sing once more (within reason and size of rotation). I look around and make sure that the crowd is still spending and always announce ahead of time that "if everyone is having a good time, I will stay later".

I will have to add that I have had (2) $100 nights and that I probably made more than the bar/resturant owner made. Calculating gross sales can be iffy at best, and will only work with honest owners and/or wait staff. There have also been a couple of extremely busy nights and my take was $300 (still a good night), and I found it hard to accept that the gross sales were only $750. There have also been some "oh so" nights that the gross sales were $1000 +. Honesty is hard to come by these days, but if the deal is making you more than you were asking, how can you go wrong.

Twice a week, I faithfully send out Emails (blind bcc) to all my singers and fans and announce food and drink specials. I include pictures of the last evenings happenings and every one looks forward to see if their picture is going to be featured. I send out blind emalis so that no one can see who I send them to (you don't want other KJ's to steal your list).

Mrmarog

BTW, early birthday greetings - don't trust myself to remember tomorrow.

Karen, Thank you

Mrmarog