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ripman8
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 Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:46 pm |
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angel910 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:05 am wrote: If it weren't for unions everyone would be lucky to make minimum wage. If stlm is a good musician he could join the musicians union and get union scale no matter where he played. That's what the union does. Gets you what you are worth. I never listened to what the union said when they wanted us to always back a democratic party person. I consider the union dues i pay as an insurance policy. That policy included my health care and my vacation pay, pension, holidays and weeks off. It included my sub pay when i was laid off. It includes a fair wage and protection from jerks that think they are better than everyone else and can do anything because you work there. I said work there, not a slave or indentured servent. Non union workers that get paid at or very close to union scale wouldn't come close to that wage without the union negotiating and making the wage as high as it is. Do you seriously think your boss would pay you $15-18-20 an hour if there were no unions in this country? Think again. You would be kissing his A&& everyday just to work for peanuts. Over the years it's a tossup to who screwed us more our international union or the company. But i would never work in any industry without a union if at all possible too many good things have come from unions. Do you like forced overtime. Unpaid holidays. Unpaid vacation time. No medical benefits. No pension. You must. Unions started because Andrew Carnegie wanted his employees to be low paid almost slave labor. Read about him and get educated on the subject. See why people died to get a union to be protected from the likes of corporate greedy business owners. Then come back and have an informed discussion. I like and enjoy the fruits of my union. Corporate greed sent jobs away from America. Unions fought to keep them here. Everyone of them. No union ever said send all the good paying jobs across the ocean. We don't need them or want them. We like working for nothing and watching our country die. Get educated on how your bread gets buttered.  Unions are on the decline. Look it up. Why? Must be a logical reason?
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angel910
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:08 pm |
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timberlea @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:55 am wrote: Quote: I consider the union dues i pay as an insurance policy. A lot of good that insurance policy did in the auto sector and other sectors of the economy. Yep great insurance policy. How many lost jobs? You are confusing corporate greed with economic turn down.
The unions are fighting as hard as possible to save the jobs and keep all the benefits intact from previous contracts. They have also made concessions to try to keep as many working as possible.
The union is not responsible for the company making bad business decisions. How the president and board of directors does business is not in the unions hands. The union has to work around them as best as they can.
The company never makes business decisions for the benefit of the workers. They do everything they can to screw them.
The auto workers still have the majority of there union achieved benefits. The company would have never volunteered them. My conmpany never volunteered anything we had to fight for it tooth and nail. If it was up to them $5 an hour and nothing else would be the normal benefit. Complain and you're fired.
Give me a union anytime.
The big fight about health care right now comes down to one thing and you better understand it.
Everyone that doesn't have health care/hospitalization right now works for a non union employer. Unions fight to get every employee health care. If you had a union job you would have health care.
We all know ..nobody needs or wants health care. Get a union and get covered.
You wouldn't pay $50 a month (union dues) to have paid vacations, holiday pay, health care, pension, and fair wages? A very cheap insurance policy to have so much benefit. Anyone that says it's not worth it is nuts. That's a large piece of mind for a cheap $50.
Union dues are tax deductable too. What a great country we live in.
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timberlea
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:29 pm |
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You're deluding yourself if you think non-union companies don't offer health care insurance and other benefits. In fact only about 12.4% of all workers in the US are unionized.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
But then again I forgot that all corporations are evil.
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angel910
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:52 pm |
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I'll put my money on the unionized workers as to who has more benefits and higher wages. What you are forgetting is that the non union wages are based on what the union members get paid. They do it to stay competative and to keep the non union workers from starting unions. It's trickery. Because the business owners know they will have to dish out more of their profit money for union higher (not lower) wages and benefits.
Nobody i have worked with ever talked about quitting the union to go backwards to nonunion.
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karyoker
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:08 pm |
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I dont form opinions or judgemetnts from movies but watch Hoffa It gives some insights into uniuns such as the teamsters.
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timberlea
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:13 pm |
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Then the union goes on strike and guess what? Members get crappy compensation from the union while the union leaders still get their full wages from the union. If a strike lasts any more than a couple of weeks, the workers will have to work a long time to remake what they lost, if ever.
I've never worked for a union and never will.
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Lonman
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:33 pm |
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We have a teachers strike going on right now. The county brought it to court & the presiding judge ordered the teacher back to work or face consequences, they defied the order & now are in jeopardy of major fines per day & possible termination. Nice thing to teach the kids - don't do as the judge orders you, take your own stance. What happens when the teacher wants the kid to do something and he refuses? I learned that from you teach!
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timberlea
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:47 pm |
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And whatever happened to the air traffic controller's union in the '80s? That's right Reagan fired the lot of them.
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leopard lizard
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:13 pm |
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I am not a union member and don't like the idea of one more layer of people telling me what to do. Plus I think that once an organization is around long enough it starts to serve itself rather than it's members and is more open to corruption.
BUT--I don't know how one can look at history and not understand that people before us had to form unions to get us better working conditions and many were killed because of it. People didn't have court orders telling them to go back to work--they had thugs killing them and sometimes their families. Children worked long hours in terrible conditions. Women burned in factories when the exits were sealed. Coal miners had even less safety than they do today.
One can blame the unions for every thing but did't the decisions made by management at GM probably contribute to the company's problems as well?
I can't remember what this thread was about.....
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timberlea
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:23 pm |
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I don't think anyone here is saying that unions were not needed. They were instrumental a hundred years or so ago. However in the intervening time they have morphed into a government upon themselves with all the corruption (organized crime) and dictatorial style of leading.
Any union members out there ever go against the union? If so, what happened?
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angel910
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:10 pm |
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timberlea @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:13 pm wrote: Then the union goes on strike and guess what? Members get crappy compensation from the union while the union leaders still get their full wages from the union. If a strike lasts any more than a couple of weeks, the workers will have to work a long time to remake what they lost, if ever.
I've never worked for a union and never will.
You would have to work longer in your lower paying nonunion job.
We went on a 3 month strike and when we came back our pension DOUBLED. I would have stayed out 3 years for that. Short term sacrifice for long term gains. That's why you are supposed to save 10 % of your income and have a 6 month supply of money for emergencies. Nobody does that because they want to stay ahead of the Jones. Buying houses they are losing because they couldn't afford them in the first place. I pay $40 a month for my health benefits now. That's cheap. Thank you union.
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angel910
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:20 pm |
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timberlea @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:47 pm wrote: And whatever happened to the air traffic controller's union in the '80s? That's right Reagan fired the lot of them.
That was him taking care of big business. The workers of the country screwed up by not backing the air traffic controllers. We should have shut down the country. Union busting is being done for a reason.
That reason is because big business doesn't want the American workers making too much money. They know unions will cost them some of their corporate greed profit money. It's as simple as ABC. They want the American workers under control. They control by keeping the money you make low. If you are broke they don't see you driving a car like they drive. Or living in their neighborhood. You don't get it. They want them poor. That's a method of control.
If you like working for low pay and no benefits stay nonunion.
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srnitynow
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:53 pm |
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All of you are making good points pro, and con union. All I'm going to say is that Unions DID serve a purpose in the beginning, but then GREED set in. They figured they'll get the worker a little bit of something, then THEY get a little bit of something. That's all fine and dandy, when the company has NO CHOICE. Problem being, when unions started MOST of the manufacturing was going on in the United States, WE were the leaders in manufacturing. NOW, since the UNIONS, AND UNION WORKERS got too greedy, the CORPORATIONS decided to get in the GREED game, and said why not go to ANOTHER market where I don't have to worry about UNIONS. Also, because of the UNION, and CORPORATE greed, the CONSUMER suffers. Because of GREED, we pay the prices we pay at the store for groceries. TRY PRICING a HARLEY, compared to a HONDA. Sure, the union workers love the fact that they brought home the BIG pay checks, which I personally don't blame them, I'd love it too, BUT look what the outcome is. Millions of jobs shipped overseas, millions of people living in poverty, and A FEW living high on the HOG. That's my idea of the way it should be "yeah right", I think it STINKS, and it's not going to get better anytime soon. My 2 cents.
Rosario
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mrmarog
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:58 pm |
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Angel stated:
"I pay $40 a month for my health benefits now. That's cheap. Thank you"
Union.
Don't you think maybe, that someone is subsidizing the low cost of your insurance some where down the line? I don't have a pension but I still have a job! Unlike a lot of union jobs out there.
I'm not a "corporate greed" lover, but I firmly believe in free enterprise. I also firmly believe that we all owe a reasonable percentage of our income to live in this great country of ours. Too many corporations have skirted this and/or have left in order to find more profitable places to conduct business.
KJing is a great way to earn a few extra bucks and return some of the earnings back into the system. At $50 to $75 bucks a night no one is going to survive very long.
Mrmarog
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timberlea
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:17 pm |
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I've always wonder who is a union member's boss, the company they work for or the union? One person can't serve two bosses and serve them both well.
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angel910
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:26 pm |
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I gave up part of my hourly pay to go into my pension fund. My company is self insured so yeah the workers give some hourly pay to have paid health care.
Corporate greed is not caused by unions. It has to do with stock holders. Making them happy. We are stuck in the corporate greed wheel. Spinning round and round. You could have health care and other good benefits with a union. I don't have to kiss A&& everyday worrying about my bosses mood. My boss can't fire me because he can and hates me for some stupid personal reason, like maybe he's a jerk.
This country had plenty of good paying jobs and unions too years ago. Unions aren't the past, they are the future. If you don't let it out of your hands.
Unions make some money from me. But as i said, i consider it a tax deductable insurance policy for a great benefit package. If you have better as a nonunion worker you are extremnely lucky. But i highly doubt it.
Union...haves
nonunion..have nots.
It all comes down to what you are worth and what you are happy with. I deserve to have the benefits the union fought for.
Your lack of benefits says it all. You can argue all you want, the proof is in the package. The amount of money paid in yearly dues was returned many many times over. You blow more money a year on stupid stuff. You could be investing in your families future. That's the only reason i took this job in the first place. Job security and great union protection and benefits that are unavailable in nonunuion shops. Stop finding excuses for your lack of benefits. Don't blame unions for it.
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Jian
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:12 pm |
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What has union got to do with karaoke? If you guys want to talk about union make your own thread in the correct place; the Lounge.
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Karen K
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:41 pm |
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Was just going to suggest that Jian.
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