Karaoke Forums

Have you ever been to a live show, and wondered why now suddendly your favourite band sounds so disappointing. I'll tell you why. We are all human, and very, vey few of us, can actually sing perfect concert pitch.

What happens, is that when your favourite star goes to a recording studio, the studio provides you with 1000's of fancy optimising modules, sound effects, and voice processors.

The vocals are recorded and then being send through numorous voice processors. Nice..................suddenly everyone that is off pitch, is suddenly singing in perfect concert pitch. That's how stars are made. Very few real stars sound the same in concert and on a recording.

Neil Diamond is a fine example. Listen to his CD and go to one of his concerts. He CAN perform live!

So, should any tell you that you're 3% off key, laugh it off. When someone tells you "try a key change" or "change the FX" that's positive critique.


BeacHeadBum, you are good solid competition and know what you talk about , and I like the way you come back at me. I have a healthy respect for your opinion, even if I don't always agree.

Let's keep this sub a clean fight. No hitting below the belt and no snotty comments from either of us. Shall we???

I don't know much about the technological side of music. I just know I love to sing. I enjoy challenging myself. I like hearing why people like my singing and why they don't. I take what I can use and leave the rest behind. I'd rather have too much information and filter through it than have not enough. It may help some people to know how far off pitch their performance is. It can't hurt to hear it especially if you know how to use it to improve yourself.
I love karaoke because it allows a wide variety of people to come together and do what they enjoy.....SING. We are not perfect by far and some are better than others. For some the ability comes very naturally, but most of us have to work on it and even come to terms with our limitations.

I agree with ALLSTAR: it is very disppointing to pay $$ to hear a live performance of someone who can only sing if using computer assistance.
I think in some ways technology is taking the magic out of the craft. What happend to the good old days when a band went into a studio and the sound that came out was their own. The little imperfections only gave the song more character. I like hearing the occaisional scratch of the guitar string and the slight hesitation in a singers voice if it comes naturally.
I guess my point is you can use whatever you need to make your self better but if you are using a machine to achieve perfect pitch it really isn't you singing Is it???
I am only voicing my opinion and hope I have not offended anyone in any way or that anything I have said is taken out of context. I think we should all learn to get along and respect each other's opinions even if we can't always agree.

To everyone out there I just want to say Keep on singing and don't forget to have fun with it.

Here it is.. Don't ever let Anyone tell you that Anybody in the Major industry isn't singing through a vocal tuner of some kind on a CD release.

The majors and most indie labels do it all the time to 99.8% of every major distrubuted release out there because NOBODY sings in perfect pitch! Radio won't even play them if they are even close. They have to be right on the mark and perfect in recording. the Consultants Now Tell the programming Directors in most EVERY radio market what to play in the US. I guarrentee it's the truth. Want to make the industry. Want to make it.. there is another obsticale. it's more than a great voice.

Stick to karaoke.. Scores don't count for a thing.

Stick to singing for the fun of it.

There is your Honesty.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

The reality of what you are saying is just sad..... I know it's true and I guess you can't fight progress. Too bad people have to be so fake to succeed in the industry. I guess that's why I like karaoke. It may not be pretty all the time but it's all me.

wannabe..
I think that's why I'm still here.. because the state of the "Snakepit". (music industry) It's a flusher.. it really is in the toilet right now and really I don't see it changing for a while.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

This is the saddest truth I have heard in a long, long time. Coming from you BHB, I will believe it.

OK, let's tuck away the knives and smoke a peace pipe. I give up!

Allstar,
I have been telling everybody the truth the whole time.. But nobody wants to hear it or can't really handle it until now. I'm really sorry to have to say it.

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Brian D.
(BHB)

I see what your saying about the vocal treatments, and why 'live' doesn't always mean authentic. Heck, I saw Eddie Money fake a sax solo... cheesey eh?

But you said cheat. And that is a strange choice of word.

With even the best 'technical cheats' you can't make a great singer. I am not sure to what extent the 'biggies' use vocal tuning. The difference between the studio and the stage is the 'number takes' more than the 'technical cheats' IMHO.

I do hear a lot on here using treatment and effects. It's important too. The backing tracks have been treated with (at least) reverb, and without it - you might sound like you're singing in a telephone booth.

As a fan, I want to hear a performers best effort. On here, I'll take whatever they submit and listen through the 'techie problems' to hear what really counts...the heart felt, joyous, sad, or gut wrenching emotion that pours from their vocal chords - treated/effected or not.

To those of you who match their vocal prowess with mastery of equalizer and various effects... YOU GO!!! Your subs are all the more enjoyable for your efforts.

Old paint,

I think there is a difference between eq, reverb etc. and then transposing pitch, retime etc.

Brian,

I have three questions for you:

1. can the pitch processing etc. be performed live?

2. does anyone sing live anymore or do they just lipsync?

3. You are giving out all these nice values for pitch deviation. To put them in perspective what would be the values for a good karaoke singer and what would be the values for a national act?

Thanks,

Morten

Thanks Morten.. Great questions..


Answers:

1) Yes

2) Both Yes : If some acts could actually get away with it. I actually saw an act attempt it on Saturday night at a African American Celebration in Tucson, on Saturday Night. (Very Cheesy) They did a motown tribute totally lip synched. My former engineer allowed me to listen to the (pfls) they were not brought into the mix but in the monitors. (all of them were quite off key) I guess they were using the "Safety Net".

3. Acts like Quiet Riot use them as a "Safety net" but not full time. and they are not afraid to say it (Kevin DuBrow) as for karaoke it definately saves alot to time re-tracking in showcasing if set correctly. Still the worst of the off key singing will still be heard and has been known to make a singer sound "TOO" flat if set really incorrectly.

It can really hurt ya if you use it wrong also. If any Demo's this piece read the documentation first.. NOT FOR BEGINNERS!

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Brian D.
(BHB)

I see what you're saying 'repitch <> FX'... sorry I missed the pont.

I agree - repitching a song is cheating. In the studio editing room, I bet that goes on - but I can't imagine that it amounts to more than a touch up or two per song. I would think more drastic 'cheating' would be readily apparent (I'm pretty sure I've heard such grotesque attempts fooling us, the listeners).

I just did some rudimentary repitching with audacity. Though I am no pro, I am getting pretty good with it. No mater what I try, I can't make an audibly flat vocal note sound good when cheated to be 'on the mark'.

I have seen (errr heard) live acts drop a half-step on certain songs (Diamond Rio, Leann Womak... Garth especially). Heck, some of those studio version must have taken days to capture - given the narly complexity and range of the melodies.

In short, good topic !!

My wife and I went to a Neil Diamond concert, not too long ago, and that is one vocalist who can sing.

The funny thing though, is that when the concert started, he was singing his loungs out, but.................not a single peep. Except the people in the 1st 2 rows could actually hear him.

Due to the magic of electronics, his mic had failed right after a sound check and when Neil started to sing, NOTHING! The sound tech came running up the stage with a replacement mic and the show continued as if nothing had happened.

There are still vocalists out there doing a great job. Neil Diamond is one of them. Another band I can stand in for is Queen, they are (were) as live as could be. No lip sinking and even better live then on track.

What happened to the era of the Beatles (60's for the young ones ). You listen to their 45's today and compared to today's music, might not be as bass pumping or perfect pitch singing, but I tell you, they were the real musicians.

Anyone can cheat and tweak their vocals on a track... it's not hard to do...

But imo its much more fun to do it without computer assisted
pitch, and I much prefer to hear people's true voices when they perform, rather than hearing what their computer can do

Atomic:
You have brought in the word that applies correctly to that subject,"CHEATING". A while back ago when I started experimenting with multi tracking, I was amazed at how well I could disguise my flaws. Then when I sat down and have a listen to the playbacks, I didn't feel very good about the manipulations to make it right. To say the least it left me empty and somehow embarassed. WHY?? Very simple; I was CHEATING.
The solution was obvious. From then on I knew that in order to improve my skills I had to get used to perform a song from top to bottom in a one take run. That forced me to concentrate harder and stay focused on what I was doing. The next step was to listen to myself with as much care to try to detect mistakes being honest about it. We have to be able to be our worst self critic, which in return will turn out to be the best schooling we'll ever had. I'm still learning but feeling great about it.
So I truly believe that the use of pitch correction devices should be a source of shame and not pride.I've been reading a lot about this subject in magazines and even the big time producers admit that they would only use them if they thought they could do it without having to alter the performance in an obvious manner and they would rather not tell the singer about it. Another situation in which they would use it is if TIME and MONEY was a big issue involved and that's the only time that they would tell the performer about it. In that case it would be the singers decision if the choice was up to him/her. One last ocassion in which it could be used is to achieve a certain effect on pre determined parts of the song for they are not only used for pitch correction.
IMO, stay true to whatever talent you may have and you'll feel a lot better about your efforts. Besides CHEATING will never gat you past a good set of ears in a live situation.

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I dream of songs of love, peace and harmony.

I find this topic real funny now..

I haven't been doing the multi track recordings yet.. with any thing other just a little delay all in a single stereo track and maybe a compressor and a 32x8x2 digital console, and a new recording platform, new pc, interface... and a outboard mic pre-amp, and new mics.

nothing that would be concidered a real "cheat" as of yet.

The "Artillerary" has yet to be used. I'm saving that for a "rainy" day.
I'm still trying to master the basics here.

and the new tracks have been recorded in one take...

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Brian D.
(BHB)

eek..how do u manipulate ur vocals ? seriously...

now i use reverb..just not alot of it like i used to..cuz i have a tiny tiny tiny mic..wheni say tiny..think...centimeters long ..very few

ive never changed my pitch wouldnt know how..but i do filter with hum and hiss removal..and standard hiss removal..

oh and i do use multitrack..seems to mix much better

ive recently learned how to compress my vocals..they dont sound any less off key just louder..if anythin i can hear the goofups more..

i have done some songs using the punch in..but usually i only punch in an entire chorus or verse..not one word or note or stuff like that..too tedious..

but im still wonderin how you can "fix" pitch?

kass

Hi, Kass:I thought I could try to help you out with your question. My reference is an article from Sean D. Carberry, a freelance producer in Boston.
"I am discussing the use of intelligent pitch correction as opposed to fixed pitch shifting. The latter is simply adjusting an entire track by raising or lowering the pitch by a fixed amount (every note will be affected equally).
Intelligent pitch correction, on the other hand, is a more complicated technology. A box or plug-in will continuosly sample every note, determine the actual pitch, and if it doesn't match a prescribed note, it will change the pitch. This requires the box to know what pitch the singer meant to hit, and this usually means you need to tell the pitch corrector a thing or two. The first is the scale and key. The simplest wtg is to set the corrector to a chromatic scale. That means the unit will shift any wrong note that triggers it (based on a user selectable threshold) to the nearest half step. Most singers don't miss by much, so a nudge to the nearest note will usually do the trick. However, this can actually create problems if the singer's pitch is particularly bad.
The more sophisticated the pitch correction device, the more scale options you will have, as well as the option to create your own scales or to exempt notes from correction. You can even set most units to detect and correct a particular pitch if a singer consistently misses only that note. Obviously, it's crucial to know the key of the song, and it's melody so that you can set up the unit or the plu-in effectively.
You'll find plenty of occasions when you don't want to set your device for maximum correction. One is that singers often intentionally slide into a note by approaching it just from below (aka scooping). In other cases, being just slightly off pitch might be a cool sound. But if the pitch corrector is adjusted too high or too fast, it will treat any pitch that's the slightest bit off the grid as one that needs fixing. That could end up canceling out those intentional microtonal effects and making the vocal sound unnatural. (Many people now use these types of extreme settings as deliberate effects thanks to singers like Cher.)
Whereas overly high settings can sound unnatural, settings that are too low or too slow can cause off-key notes to sail uncorrected. Getting it right takes precision listening and subtle tweaking."
So there you have it my friend Kass and anyone else interested. Isn't it simpler to just try our best to stay on pitch as best as we can so we don't have to cheat? Easier said than done but it's worth to keep trying.

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I dream of songs of love, peace and harmony.

uh huh im thinkin i better just sing and hope for the best with my little reverb ty though ..

wow..that was complicated...

wayyyyyyyy outa my league
hugs

Please don't think I was implying that you were cheating... cos I wasn't....

Just making an observation as to how easially it can be done

Tony.. You hit it on the head.. Antares and TC electronics make the intelegent pitch correctors. (a.k.a. "Vocal Tuners") Most recording platforms have the fixed pitch shifters. Since I re-did the new system I have yet to use the "Tuners" at all.

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Brian D.
(BHB)