Karaoke Forums

I've found that when someone does something outside the law (LIKE NOT PAY YOU) sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Picketing is a good idea but if they have bouncers or "friends" of the place it could get physical and I don't advise of putting yourself in that situation. I LIKE the idea of calling the fire marshall, call the ATF or Liquore board. Tell them the place is serving minors and you've witnessed drugs in the restrooms. ( chances are it's not too far fetched from the truth.) Find out where the owner lives and visit his house. Demand your money. I'd call the college and try to get them on your side to boycott the place.

Although some of these idea might seem great..thats what the law and courts are for..going to extrem measure like picketing ...ect..are childish ..let the courts handle it then it wont look bad on you or your business...your action can and will have an effect on your Rep so be careful.

Um, in this case it's not a consumer issue, it's a business to business issue so I don't think they'd be interested.

My advice to the OP is simple, if you want to be treated like a professional, act professional. DO NOT go in and cause a scene, that's what consumers do and it's not a professional response. I feel the same about the picketing idea. Throwing a public tantrum will end up casting you in almost as bad a light as the bar itself. Definitely DO NOT file a false report with the Liquor Board, police or any other organization. In most states it's a felony and if you do it with a federal agency, now you're talking time in a fed pen. That's about the worst idea I've heard yet.

I certainly would not play there again until paid for this gig and for future gigs would require the fee to be paid in cash before equipment is loaded in.

Honestly, you've handled it properly so far and I think you plan to take the next step of going to court is a good one. I'm not sure about in your state, but in WI you can sue up to double the amount owed plus any expenses, court fees, etc. from the suit itself. Sure it doesn't guarantee he'll pay, but if he's not going to follow a court ordered judgement, he's probably not go to pay you regardless of what you do.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Excellent summarization of the circumstances. Most notable is the clear evaluation and distinction between how a businessman should conduct himself vs how a customer might be successful in reacting to a problem in an "over the top" fashion. While as a consumer I am quite comfortable going over the top when necessary, I now realize more fully why I wasn't readily embracing the confrontational suggestions so far offered, even though have worked for others. Perhaps I should limit my efforts to small claims court and consider any advice offered solely in that regard?

Of course I will let anyone else starting karaoke where I had the problem know about my experience. And I have no intention of going back unless I have been paid for the last gig and receive payment for each future gig in advance of my showing up - not simply in advance of my setting up!

Agreed. File in small claims, and chalk it up to experience. Sure it sucks, but one night is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme. Plus if you have a judgment, you can file a lien on the place. Eventually, he will want to sell, expand, re-finance, etc, and it will pop up. . It may be a few years but THEN you will get paid.

sure you can file in small claims court and put a lien on his business and MAYBE someday he will pay you

By the time that this happens the list of people with liens will be 3 pages - creditors -banks - utility companies - liquor distributors etc etc . The KJ who worked 1 night will be on the bottom of people who may get paid. If this owner stiffed you chances are he is having FINANCIAL problems ... confirmed by the fact he is avoiding you. He is taking all his nightly cash and hording it until he has to close down and delcare Bankruptcy. I still think if you make a big enough STINK now while his business is still open is the ONLY WAY to collect ..what $100-$150 ????

1. I am in no hurry and my costs is of no concern to me; it's all about principle now!

2. If I perfect a judgment and he doesn't pay me, why does anyone think he'll pay me without a judgment just because I "get in his face" ?

3. A judgment is good for 10 years. That gives me plenty of time to decide what I want to do about collecting if I am not paid "voluntarily"

4. With the judgment I can go to the Sheriff and request that he seize property at the venue. (The place has an in-house sound system worth at least $1000). Regardless of what I have been awarded by the courts and regardless of what the proceeds are from the Sheriff's sale, I get $500 by law for initiating the seizure!

5. I can always come up with some other strategy at a later time if I don't/can't collect on the judgment

6. The venue is owned by a corporation for the last 4-5 years. That corporation has existed for over 10 years AND HAS HAD NO LAWSUITS filed against it!

GOOD LUCK finding another venue! That ALWAYS looks good when you approach a NEW venue, and say " Well, the last venue didn't pay, so I SUED them." YEAH, that'll get you the job. Ever notice when you go to get ANY job, one of the questions that you are asked, " Have you EVER filed ANY claims against a FORMER employer?" Sue this guy, and the word will get around to EVERY bar in your area, and you'll be the karaoke guy that SUED so and so. BAD idea IN MY OPINION.

Srnitynow

You have to do what you feel comfortable doing.

In my case honestly I probably wouldn't do anything and write it up as a loss. I don't have the time or energy to worry about the loss of money from one gig. I may make the threat to picket just to see if the threat would work, but wouldn't actually do it. I commend you for taking the time to sue this individual. Hopefully you'll make him think twice about doing it to someone else.

I don't think any of the ideas are bad ones as long as they're legal. You weren't paid and have every right to try to collect on the money you're owed. If your seen picketing or suing for money owed I don't think anyone would see you in a negative way. The only thought I'd have if I saw something like that is what a dead beat the owner is.

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Are you serious??????

1. Don't principles matter? And in this type of situation I doubt that few people would ignore the principle though some might be willing to forgo the money!

2. How would you feel if you were the next one he screwed and I didn't try to do something MEANINGFUL about it?

3. How many business people are going to go OUT OF THEIR WAY to tell another business person that I sued them BECAUSE THEY BROKE THEIR VERBAL AGREEMENT WITH ME?

4. And why would I GRATUITOUSLY offer the information to a perspective gig that I sued a venue for non-payment.? Of course, if another venue did that to me I would send them a copy of the JUDGMENT I got form the first suit just to help to redirect their thinking!

You were just kidding! Right?

For the record I've never gone to a venue yet that asked me why I left my last venue, that's what they do in job interviews not B2B negotiations. I agree that it's pretty unlikely that word's going to travel too far about your court case. Unless you live in a really small area, that kinda stuff doesn't make newspapers and as you pointed out, I don't see the defendant in your case being too quick to brag about how he got sued because he stiffed a KJ out of a couple hundred bucks.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I "think" he may pay you for the fact he wants to remain open and busy as long as possible ..who nows --probably just a lost cause

Maybe it's just "small town" point of view, but I personally would just let it go, and let it be known that HE IS A JERK, and not a man of his word. In small towns, ALL of the owners know each other, and know who has entertainment, and who doesn't. You don't for one second think that this owner is telling everyone he STIFFED you for the gig, do you. He is probably giving a WHOLE different series of events whenever asked why you are no longer there. I was STIFFED by a bar owner, not for a gig, but for a portrait I did for his bar that went well with the theme of his place. I just walked into the place, and politely removed the portrait from the wall. He stepped up and asked what I was doing with HIS picture, I POLITELY said "Excuse me, but the signature on this piece happens to be MINE". I know this is a WHOLE different situation, but in my opinion, I think (in principle alone) that you come across as being the better man by not lowering yourself to the level of this SNIPE. PERSONALLY I would just chalk it off, and move on. I'm not trying to convince ANYONE of what THEY should do, just stating MY OPINION, take it for what you think it's worth.

Srnitynow

I never lived in a really small town. Even my home town of 35,000 was surrounded by contiguous communities that produced a county of two million. So maybe what I am going to suggest is all wrong.

But might it not be that being in such a small community that the owner would be more concerned than someone in a large community that others would find out the HE IS a sleazeball? And if you threaten to get the word out about his actions that he'd be afraid not only that his reputation would be tarnished in the "small" local business community but that no other entertainer would agree to work there? Couldn't it be a PLUS for the entertainer, in fact, that the community is so small?

We live in a small town-like area. I have gone down the highway handing out flyers at various bars and even 45 minutes away it seems the owners know all about who is doing karaoke at each bar and how well they are doing and what they are getting paid, etc. Some may know who cheats in what area and some may not admire it but some may envy it. If it is just bar owners talking to bar owners without someone else there to give another side of the story your owner could well say that he stiffed you for some reason that seems valid to them. I think that is all Serenity is alluding to. Your reaction may well be that you would sue for demation of character if that happened so as not to allow this owner to ruin anyone else. Others may just want to let fate take care of the guy and move on.

LL is right on the money with what I'm trying to say. SOME of the bar owners ENJOY having the rep as being a SLIMEBALL. They can ALWAYS have some twisted reasoning of why they screwed you. I don't even bother losing any sleep over these type of people. I just take it with a grain of salt, and move on. MAYBE, that's because when I was younger, I probably would have just walked in and took my money's worth out of his A$$. I live in a small quiet community now, and like it, but I grew up in one of the worst areas in New Orleans, where violence was the cure all. I'm glad that I lived and learned to turn the other cheek. It's not easy, but I can do it NOW.

Srnitynow

So, I guess, when you're in a small town the word gets around if you have gotten stiffed. And probably there is some justification which accompanies the story for that happening. It would also become common knowledge, I imagine, that you did nothing in response to getting stiffed?

Wouldn't that information then become an invitation for everyone and anyone to stiff you whenever they feel like it?

When I first began my preparations for doing karaoke, my mentor had mentioned to me about a recent incident where he had been stiffed and warned me that it does happen! I can't believe that there is any more powerful incentive for owners stiffing us than the fact that they get away with it!

As for "turning the other cheek", this is business - NOT A STREET FIGHT!

"Leave it to fate"? I don't think so!

And, again, I am prepared for this effort to be a net loss to me in the end.
Why? Because there is a principle involved! And what, you may wonder, is the principle?

i HAVE TOO MUCH RESPECT FOR WHAT I DO. And not getting paid and accepting such a circumstance would be no different to me than working as an employee and being told at the end of a week of busting my butt that my employer didn't like my work that week and therefore he wasn't going to pay me! Fortunately, for employees who would otherwise "turn their other cheek" or "leave it to fate". labor laws were created along with the agencies to enforce them! And it is the existence of those laws and agencies that keep most employers towing the line. But notice I said "most"!

I worked hard to learn my skills and I think that I am damn good at what I do. In fact, the sound man at this problematic venue, who is also a DJ, told me that I put on the best karaoke show that he has ever seen. Now that makes two of us with that opinion.

I invested a lot in my equipment and library.

I spent time and money marketing the show for that venue!

"Turn the other cheek"? "Leave it to fate"? I hardly think so!

I hope everything works out for you, good luck.

Srnitynow

Thank you, Srnity, and everyone else who took time to respond to my problem. I haven't taken any additional steps, yet. I am waiting to get the notice back from the PO that the demand letter/invoice was received.

Once I get that back, I will reconsider everything that I have in the way of ideas/opinions and proceed from there

Thanks again

Actually, no. This has question has NEVER been asked of me, in Karaoke, or otherwise.

And even so...what is there to be ashamed about? Yes I sued him...because he didn't pay me!

Just as a bar owner would go after a patron who rang up a $250 bar tab and stiffed THEM if they knew who they were and where to find them!