Karaoke Forums

I have never down loaded a karaoke song and sometimes get lost in the threads about the subject, but I keep reading them. From what I've read it is illegal to use down loaded karaoke music for business purposes and that you can only use them for personal use in the US. I don't think this is common knowledge because I hear many KJs talk about down loading music. I don't blaim them for not knowing because I'm sure most people would think as long as they paid for the music they're covered. I was just curious how many KJs down load their karaoke music and how they feel about this relatively new news (at least to me) that it is illegal.

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I have never downloaded!

Srnitynow

I have never downloaded since the sites available are so iffy to start with & the ones that are supposedly legal state in their TOS not for commercial use. Besides I want a physical disc simply for reasons if I ever HAVE to go back to discs, there will be nothing I will lose from my books.

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Just let me say I'm not passing judgement on people who do. I would think 99% of people don't even know this is considered illegal. And those of you who are hearing it for the first time - How do you feel about it?

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Are you talking about downloading at your show ??

That I've never done

But I have used TRACKS that I've (PAID FOR) and downloaded and added to my library

Both Jam

It actually doesn't matter if you do it at home or your show. And it doesn't matter if you've paid for them or not.

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

All this is a gray area. Who says it's illegal? If you run a computer, that is supposedly illegal too.

Personally I don't worry about it. They are unlikely to make a test case out of me, and I refuse to run in fear until they "man up" and resolve this in the courts for real.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I have, but only once. As a special request for a regular, I bought three songs from Jonathan Coulton from his website:
http://www.jonathancoulton.com/store/karaoke/
Thing is, it states right on there that we are free to use them publicly. So I'm covered that way!
I much prefer discs so that if anything happens I can re-rip and if I lose a receipt, I have the original disc.

I agree I think ALL KJ's who have "shifted formats" or even made 1-1 copies of their cdgs "may" be breaking the LETTER OF THE LAW. I know some manus have been quoted as saying "we won't do anything about 1 to 1 copies" doesn't mean THEY CAN'T in the future.

I just like to have a disc, because at home, I don't have to set up my whole (setup) in order to practice singing. We have an all-in-one home karaoke player that we can use with the discs. Plus I just like to have SOMETHING to show for my money. Guess I'm just old fashioned.


Rosario

Kurt from SC said NO downloads are legal in the US. I almost fell over when I read it. Now I don't down load. It's mainly because I was to lazy to figure it all out. I've always bought discs and ripped them. I figured why change I know how to do that.

It just makes me mad that once again KJs are caught up in what is legal or not. I know how important it is to a lot of KJs on the forum to be legal and have gone to great expense to be legal. Now they find out even if they paid for a down loaded track it is illegal to use for business use in the US.
Unbelievable in my mind. Yeah it's a grey area and probably nothing will be enforced, so I'm sure it won't be a problem. I just feel bad for the KJs who were trying to stay legal and now aren't.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Oh, I don't download any SoundChoice. I know that's not permitted. I have bought a hundred or so tracks from them but they were the custom burns based in Australia.

I am talking about Tricerasoft, specifically Zoom, Sunfly, and SBI. I have purchased a few hundred of those from Tricerasoft. As far as I know, they are legal to use.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

We don't download because it was pretty well explained about why it is not legal by Sound Choice. I don't want to go into the gray area because it just seems to expand the gray areas even more.

I download on the fly from sites that are legal in the country in which they operate. (UK, Canada) These sites pay royalties through MCPS as well as negotiated rates with the manufacturer. My belief is that an imported download is no different from an imported physical disc and I would be happy to argue that position in court. KS states there are no legal download sites in the US. That is true only for Sound Choice branded music. Chartbuster has (on and off) had a legal download site for public domain music and I'm sure is working on getting the licensing for their other downloads.

As for other downloads not being for professional use, the same applies to songs downloaded from iTunes, amazon, lala etc. Many regular audio CDs state that they are not for public performance in the fine print. Again it is my belief that ASCAP, BMI et al cover these for professional use and the same would apply to karaoke. (or would it since it is not considered a phonorecord, but a video product). DJs are happily using those files in their shows without concern. Either way I see a huge difference between paying to download a song from an overseas, manufacturer licensed source vs buying a hard drive off craigslist or visiting any number of filesharing sites. There is no statute on any law books saying I have or am doing anything illegal, there in no case law in criminal or civil court. I have enough correspondence with manufacturers and download sites to show that I am doing everything I can to ensure I am buying legal music that the producers and artists will be compensated for.

Any investigation into my business practices will show I have never given a copy of my music out to anyone, shared any of my files online or used non-manufacturer sanctioned download sites.

Do I download, yes! On demand, absolutely! Would I buy Sound Choice given the chance? Yep, they'd make a fortune from me!

Jonn


end note:

I admire Sound Choice for taking the high road on getting the licensing right 99% of the time on their music but I trust their opinion (lawyer advised or not) on other manufacturer's downloads as much I trust Blue Cross to care more about my health then their bottom line!

I disagree it is legal to download songs and to use them for karaoke. INCLUDING COMMERCIAL.

A few sites are apparently legal and are opperating outside of the USA. Two that I use are SelectATrack and Tricerasoft, both in the UK.

Now the seller must have the right to sell the product by the company that made it, so yes Soundchoice is right in saying that they currently do not have any legal downloads of their songs. They have not given/sold the rights to thier tracks to any company. So if you are purchising Soundchoice downloads now according to their recent views (and this will probably change someday) they think you are purchasing stolen property.

BUT other companies apparently have a differnt view Notably SBI, Zoom and Sunfly. They sell their songs as LEGAL downloads.

By trade laws as long as we pay for the copies we buy, we own them and are able to do with them as we wish (even if they are being sold from another country).


With regards to the "Commercial USE" it is my understanding that so long as you have a legally purchased song (on CD, MP3, Record or whatever) you do not have the right to COMMERCIALLY use it unless you are paying ASCAP/BMI, or other fees depending on the type of commercial use.

The format of the media has nothing to do with how you can use it (providing it was legally purchased).

The commercial use falls into different catagories. Play in a profit making venue (commercial use) involves payment of fees to ASCAP/BMI.

The commercial use of the track in something like a commercial, TV show, Movie etc requires a different level of licensing and involves many lawyers contracts and fees (usually done on a case by case basis).

Admittedly it is so easy to setup a pirate site to sell illegal Karaoke downloads that there are many illegal places to buy Karaoke downloads. These sites are set up without the approval of the company that made the tracks, and they are not paying for their sales to the company that made the tracks, or inderectly the royalties to the songwriters.

However it is also easy to setup a custom disk system as well, and some of the custom disks are probably illegal as well. Others appear to be legal.

The problem is, that the law has simply not caught up to the technology. Please show me one copyright law where it says that it is illegal to download karaoke songs.

There isn't one. There isn't any law governing karaoke whatsoever... downloaded or not. All we have are the music corporation threatening folks with lawsuits if they don't comply with with their interpretation of the law.

SBI Karaoke is very reputable, as does Trecerasoft.

Format shifting is supposedly illegal as well, but the companies have agreed "not to sue" if you have the original disc.

The problem here, is that this is impeding logical, technological advancement which by and large the courts look very dimly upon.

What is illegal? Downloading songs without paying for them, or buying 100, 000 song hardrives off craigslist for $350. Clearly the artists and manufactures are not being compensated for there work. I refuse, however, to pay $20 for discs that have one song on them I need. Its not fair to me, its not fair to the singers.

I pay for my tracks, the folks involved have been compensated, the bars I work at pay their ASCAP/ BMI fees, so I will use them as I please.

I'm a poor guy, so I certainly wouldn't want to be the test case, but I think it would be very difficult in this case for someone to show a loss through my use of those tracks in my show.

Doing it this way, I'm not even format shifting.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

The problem with laws is that Karaoke falls in between the laws written for music (alone) and for video (think movies).

Not a lawyer, but for the US here are some of the laws, as far as I can figure them out.

For music it is LEGAL to format shift a copy from a CD onto a mobile device like an I-pod, computer etc, so long as you keep the origional CD/Tape/etc.

For music it is LEGAL to download songs that have been purchased and to use them as one sees fit. (so long as the seller has the right to sell the song.)

For music it is LEGAL to use music (regardless of how it was legally obtained) in a commercial setting so long as ASCAP/BMI fees are paid.


For videos it is LEGAL to download (so long as the seller has the right to download).

For videos i don't know about the US law on format shifting. (or even if they are clear). The laws must be less clear than with music otherwise we would not have any conflict.

For video (or whatever movie format) there are much more complex laws involved for commercial use than for just music. IE a movie theatre (or other venue) that shows a move has to pay more than a private individual who rents or purchases a video of the movie. I don't really know the legality. I assume someone must get paid.

So for video and music, downloading is LEGAL, and since Karaoke is somewhere in between (in the eyes of the law) , it is also LEGAL.

For public perforamce of Karaoke that has been settled with ASCAP/BMI taking responsiblity for the PUBLIC use of the form of entertainment (along with straight music).

I said sometimes because I don't always download my songs but for the most part I do. I like the ability to download only the songs I want because I have so many songs that never get done and I have a large enough library that I can justify just getting what is requested from my singers. I will however buy a disc if that's the only way to get the song. I have started using Karaoke version because it has the ability to request songs and it had my Journey song that I was looking for since their new album came out.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I've downloaded from Tricerasoft to get some songs requested by my singers. I'd prefer to get an actual disc, but the downloads seem to satisfy my singers. Trying to find certain requested songs can be difficult and expensive if you have to buy a whole disc for the one song that will ever be sung from it. I find the downloads fill that gap.

To fill the void for a song I download from mp3gmusic.com they seem to keep up on all the supposed legal download sites but you still have to read the terms to figure out if you can use the music for commercial use. I still haven't seen buykaraoke downloads.com on the site I wonder if there is some question about legalities.

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