Karaoke Forums

Hello all!

I use a Yamaha EMX512SC powered mixer with EV SX300s for my FOH. I add a JBL JRX118SP powered sub to the mix at bigger venues.

I do not use crossovers and find that my EVs might take a bit of a beating when I am really pumping them at a larger venue.

What FOH do you recommend I upgrade to? I was thinking maybe something 15"? ?Yamaha? Peavey? JBL? EV? what models should I be looking at?

I would even consider selling the sub, if there was a pair of speakers that would really up the bass.

Your thoughts?

Thanks!

Vic in Sydney

If you're looking at running 2-way full-range cabinets with no subs, look at something with a 15" Woofer. Check the Frequency Range and Frequency Response specs and look for something that can go down to around 45-50Hz at least. If you're getting this low, the only time you're really going to notice bass missing is when you are playing rap tunes with seriously ultra-low bass lines. Honestly, a lot of sub-woofers on the market aren't capable of getting that low either.

I have the Mackie S215's and they actually perform really well as I described above. There are a few rap titles in my house music that I can hear the speakers struggling to fully reproduce, but overall they do really well when I have them running on their own (which with the small areas I play is most of the time).

Of course if you're talking passive speakers, your amp is going to play heavily into how much bass you can drive out of your full-range cabinets as well. Bass frequencies take the most power to reproduce so an amp with a lot of headroom is always best. The AB1100 that I use is a seriously heavy duty (and just plain HEAVY) amp and can really deliver a punch.

All that said, if you can run with a sub, I'd still recommend that over going with just a pair of 2-ways. However, I'd look at upgrading to a more powerful sub that what you have now. My general rule is that the combined power of the subs (assuming more than one) should be at minimum equal to the combined power of the full-range cabinets and ideally double that of the full-range cabs.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Briefly, the EMX512SC has no power amp insert jacks or similar. That means its built-in amps are almost useless for a tops+subs FoH setup. Your current sub is fighting out-of-phase energy from your tops. It's not going to get a lot better by fixing this problem, but that's a first step. Buy an outboard crossover and amplifier, and use the built-in EMX amp for your monitors only.

Once you solve that problem, you can get to "more bass." If you are running that JRX powered sub out of gas, then you are going to need both more subs and more power to get a noticeable improvement. Start with a good horn sub or an SRX718S plus a decent amp, and be prepared to add a second 718S for your larger jobs.

If two 18" subs plus amps don't fit in your vehicle, then you need to rent for those bigger jobs if you want better sound. Rent a U-Haul, rent a sound system, whichever.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

There are few "full-range" speakers that can really do that. Some make that claim, including some cheap Yamaha Club-V series products, but we've all heard those and hopefully we don't all own them, because the specs are exaggerated and the boxes aren't impressive.

There's a ton of content around 40Hz in modern recordings, and most full-range speakers aren't up to reproducing it. That's why, of course, everyone wants some subs.

I own MRX525s, a good 2x15" cabinet and worth every penny of the $900ea price tag, and I hate using them with no subs. JBL claims they are pretty flat (-3dB) to 57Hz and I don't disbelieve them, but I would rather have an MRX512M over one SRX718S per side than just the 525s with no subs. Or a CM12V / CM15V over an CW118V per side.

If you give up your subs you will notice the difference, and you probably won't like it.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I can't argue with anything stated here. For the record, the open 4th string on a bass guitar is about 41Hz, the open 5th string on a 5-string bass is around 31Hz. So to the OP, tha sould give you some perspective on what you'd be missing going with only full-range cabs.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Indeed, and the SRX718 is -3dB at 34Hz, making it a really good sub for reproducing almost everything you want from live musicians and modern recordings. It is not huge, not terribly heavy, and it's really efficient for a direct-radiator.

I kinda suspect the OP is doing some jobs that are way too big for him, though. A PA system that will fit into a car or small SUV is never going to cover a hotel ballroom when loud, low bass is expected.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I own both the EMX512 and a pair of SX300s. You don't need different speakers, what you need is a more powerful amplifier. Those Sx300s are terrific speakers and they can kick major butt. If you had a better sub that had a built in high pass filter you would be all set like a Tour X 1181 for example or a Yorkville LS608. The JBL JRX sub is an entry level sub that's not in the same class as the SX300 speakers. Get rid of it and don't look back. I use a pair of EV Sb122 subs and I'm very happy with them with either my Sx100s or Sx300s or my Zx1s.

What you need is a lot more power than what the EMX512 can put out like a QSC PLX3002 or a Behringer EXP3000-something that will put out 500 or 600 watts per channel at 8 ohms. Both of those amps have built in crossovers. The vocal effects on the EMX512 are not very good either. I have a small Alesis Multimix 8 mixer that has really good built in vocal effects and very good mic preamps. You can make people sound REALLY good. It's only $100-$150 with no external vocal effects unit needed.

Once I got the Alesis Multimix I completely stopped using the EMX512, I'll be selling it on ebay or craig's list soon.

QSC PLX and Behringer EPX both suck at driving subwoofers. From those two manufacturers, QSC RMX or Behringer EP-series would be the way to go when subs are in the picture.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Both would be far better than what he has and would work just fine. Not everyone wants to lug around heavy 40+ pound amps like what you're suggesting and there are lighter weight amps built with mobile DJs/KJs in mind that work great-even powering a sub. Need more power? Go up to the PLX 3602, but I hope you have a decent electrical circuit to pug it into.

PLX amps sound great and they're light weight. The Behringer EPX3000 as far as I can tell is very similar to the PLX3002. My point was that he could get a lot more out of his speakers by powering them properly. They can put out a lot more quality sound than what they can do with an EMX512 driving them.

An efficient sub that doesn't guzzle power can be run quite nicely off of one channel of either of the amps I mentioned. If the sub has a high pass filter you can power one top and one sub off each channel no problem. My Sb122 subs are rated at 400/800/1600 and I've run them just fine with far less power-they're efficient, just like the Sx300s.

If you haven't used EV speakers then you really can't believe or understand how efficient they are. They put out a lot of SPL for their size.

With the amount of clean power that they put out, the amps I suggested can power a decent quality sub just fine and both are bridegable and capable of going down to two ohms. You could run 3 speakers per side with no problems, I've done it with older, less powerful amps.

One more thing. You don't know what you're talking about most of the time, why are you giving advice to people?

I don't know what I'm talking about?

The PLX amps are not good on subs, period. Read about it all over PSW. Many people have been shocked at the difference between them and cheaper (but heavier, as you state) RMX or other amplifiers with similar output ratings. The power supply design is just not very good at driving subwoofers. Why? Because the PLX is a small amp with small capacitors and it depends on being able to rapidly recharge its reserves, which is not possible when the AC input voltage is 0V, which, because of the nature of alternating current supply, happens!

I own three XTi 2000s, which have a similar power supply design to the PLX and EPX. I do not use them on subs because the EP-series and RMX amps I own are audibly superior. I do, however, use the XTi amps on monitors. They are great in that role for many reasons.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I'm not sure which "cheap yamaha" speakers you speak of, but my S115-V speakers are certainly impressive. Heavy, yes but I continuously get compliments on my sound.

He doesn't know what he's talking about most of the time, but he sure likes to give a lot of advice. And yet he uses Kustom speakers and swears that they sound GREAT. Show me ONE pro audio setup that uses Kustom speakers.

Put a pair of EV Sx300s with a pair of efficient subs-not Peavey or JBL, they gulp power-and you can blast 300+ people with a powerful amp. Need more than that? Add another top or a pair of tops, or another top and another sub. It's better to have more speakers operating below their maximum ability than to try to drive one pair too hard. You'll get cleaner, smoother undistorted sound and better coverage of the room. Pushing speakers too hard will give you a harsher tone and lower quality sound.

If you pick the right amp and the right subs you can drive a pair of SX300s AND a pair of subs off of one amp. Period, end of story.

Want to be really conservative? Want to have a backup with you at all times? Drive your tops with one 21 pound PLX and drive the subs with another PLX. Both amps will still weigh less than one of the older AB amps. If one amp goes down you can have the tops and the subs running off a single amp within 2-3 minutesor less just by switching cables.

I do everything myself, I'm at a different venue every time I set up and there is no way I am carrying around 45 or 48 pound amplifiers anymore. There are lighter alternatives now that are tried and true, road tested and reliable. The one thing I LOVE about my trusty Yamaha EMX512 that has never let me down is it's light as a feather. I can lift it by the handle with two fingers, but it just doesn't have the juice for large crowds or high volume output. It's good for up to maybe 100, maybe 150 people at the very max and it doesn't have the cajones to drive a pair of tops and subs for large crowds or at super high volume levels. 500wpc@4ohms only gets you so far.

Now wait one danged minute here, why are you dragging me into your pee'ing match with Jeff. I have the AB1100 and never once suggested that anyone here use it for anything. It's way heavier than comparable amps you can purchase these days. I just happens to be what I have and use because it's durable, does the job and kicks serious butt.

That said, since you want to drag me into this, let me just say this is one of the most foolish arguments I've ever seen. Both amps are Class-H amplifiers at the power levels we're talking about here. Both in their lower powered brethren rely on Class AB output circuits. I have read that the PLX is subject to more rail voltage fluctuation than the RMX under heavy sustained loads and some have stated it's detectable when driving sub-low frequencies.

What I find comical is that you made the assertion to Jeff that you'd never see a Kustom speaker in a "pro audio setup". Well I'm not sure what your definition of a "pro audio setup" is but let me address this. I have seen Kustom cabinet at a number of professional installs, usually banquet halls, houses of worship, that sort of thing. And there I will see both RMX, PLX and other amplifiers. So based on that I have to assume that you mean a concert quality rig and well yes you're right you won't see any Kustom cabinets there, however the irony is you won't see any PLX amplifiers and you won't hear the engineers whining about the weight of their amplifiers. So make up your mind, are we to buy the best possible solution or are we to make trade-offs in audio quality for the sake of convenience, lower cost, etc.

So how about the two of you quit pee'ing on each others cheerios and just worry about helping out the OP who sounds like he could use quite a bit of reliable advice. AND STOP DRAGGING ME INTO YOUR LITTLE SCUFFLES.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

You're delusional if you think anything I said was directed at you. The mere fact that I mentioned AB amps has nothing to do with you and I find it difficult to comprehend why you would think it did. Maybe you just wanted to jump into the middle of this little love fest and start peeing too because you felt left out.

With speaker choices like Yamaha, Yorkville, RCF, QSC, Electro Voice, Peavey etc. why would someone buy Kustom speakers???? One reason, they're cheap. It's not because they're high performance great sounding speakers. I would put up a pair of entry level Yamaha S115V against any Kustom speaker.

When I go out from place to place I see bars, restaurants, bands and solo performers using JBL, Yamaha, Peavey, Bose and Electro Voice. Not Kustom. I see Peavey amps, QSC amps, EV amps, Yamaha amps, an occasional Crown and an occasional Crest. Kustom is garage band gear.

When I walk in with my EV speakers I KNOW they are going to sound fantastic and make me or my singers sound fantastic. I know they will work EVERY TIME without fail for many, many years. Having heard and used MANY different speaker brands and models I KNOW EV speakers are among the best and most professional speakers available. Can you really say that about Kustom???

Are you going to try to tell me that QSC PLX amps aren't Pro audio gear? That's hilarious.

Umm lets see here, maybe because my first post in the thread talked about my AB amplifier and nothing else in this thread mentioned it until you brought it up in your post?

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I don't argue with this a bit. As a regular user of the X-Array and Phoenix systems I would put EV in my top five for concert series gear. And that quality then trickles down into their portable series as well.



As I said, it depends on your definition of "pro audio setups". My definition would include them yes, but it would also include Kustom and many other manufacturers of gear that are not concert quality. As I've said I've seen them used in a few pro-installs. Just as I've seen Behringer, Peavey and others too. I may not like them (Behringer, Kustom, Peavey), but they are pro-audio. Now where I wouldn't see them is when you start talking concert scale gear. So if this is what you're limiting the scope of "pro audio setups" too then no, I don't see Kustom cabinets in those settings, however as I said before I don't see PLX amplifiers in those applications either.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I didn't even read your first post.

I hope you don't think you're the only one who knows what a an AB amp is and the only one who ever mentioned one. You're totally and completely off base and deranged to assert that I was commenting on what you said. It makes no sense at all.

Most of the amps being used today are AB amps with big, heavy copper wound torroidial transformers. It's only in the last 10 years or so that class H amps have been used and I doubt they're in the majority even today. Some class D amps are used in active speakers.

Given the choice of carrying a light weight amp that does just fine for nearly all situations or dragging around heavy gear that does a very good job too, I'll take the light weight gear.

Most people here don't provide concert sound, they are single operators loading into bars, restaurants, weddings etc. almost always for 200 people or less, more often for less than 100 and frequently for maybe 40-50 or even less than that. That's the majority of people here.

What I recommended will take you up to around 300. That covers all but the biggest venues that most people will ever play at. If you're providing sound for a lot more than 300 people you need to come with more than a pair of speakers on sticks and a JRX sub. That's a fact Jack.

I guess I should have said "inexpensive." They are not bad, especially for the price; but they do not do much for modern recordings with a lot of low-frequency content. Even the bigger S215V is unimpressive without help from a subwoofer.

As far as stogie's bashing post goes, I have hundreds of hours on a pair of cheap Kustom 2x15s, and I have bands at that venue ask to use them regularly because their antiquated garbage is less capable. They are not touring-class speakers, as letitrip points out; but they are very good for the price.

I also mentioned that I own some pretty nice JBL 2x15s, and I don't use them without subs either. Nor would I use Electro-Voice or Yorkville or any other full-range speakers that roll off anywhere above 40Hz without subs. My criteria for my audio system is -3dB to 40Hz, and I get that with decent subs.

I do not know why you are busy comparing different amplifier output designs, but as I mentioned, the reason the PLX, EPX, XTi, and perhaps other light-weight, switching amplifiers perform poorly while powering subwoofers is because of the lack of enough capacitors to keep the supply rails charged up when the AC supply is near 0V. I own both kinds of amplifiers and I know what they are good at, and what they aren't.

As far as output vs weight goes, here is my thinking on that. My XTi amps are about 20 pounds, but they really do start clipping somewhere around -3dB below the output I get from my RMX 2450 and EP2500/EP4000 amps when driving subwoofer loads, 33Hz - 80Hz. I would rather get that 3dB back by adding a heavier amp than an additional, much heaver, and much bulkier subwoofer.

And just to revisit the "Jeff is clueless, don't listen to him" type remarks that stogie has made on this thread, my audio equipment has all paid for itself since I started doing this about 15 months ago. My reputation is that I have the best karaoke system, and the best mix for singers, in my town. I have had as many as 3 PA systems deployed at once on several days this summer when I was busy with weddings and had a friend fill in at my karaoke gig.

I can't imagine why you would decide from my statement that some Kustom speakers are the best thing I know of for the price, that I do not know what I'm talking about. I have 6 Kustom wedges also, and they are fine for my use, which is karaoke and bar bands. I don't have Kid Rock on my stage and I make bands aware that I will rent better wedges for them if they want, and they never want it because it isn't worth the extra money to them, which is why I haven't bought better ones yet.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ