Karaoke Forums

The following post from JohnReynolds is one of the best posts I have ever read:


So, in your opinion - ART FORM OR FUN?

I vote for FUN FUN FUN, til the KJ takes my mic AWA HAY A AY

I think it can be both.

A great singer will sound pretty good without everything being perfect in the sound settings. An average or poor singer will not be turned into a great singer by a key change, a bit less base, or more reverb.

Studio edits are another thing, and they really can make a poor singer a lot better but that is something totally different, involving splicing parts from multiple attempts together and optimizing the sound on each segment.

That is not to say that we should not do those adjustments when requested. The problem with (some) divas is they are not really great singers. I am not targeting this at anyone on the board here I have not heard you sing.

These "Divas" from my experience make multiple demands and end up sounding average or worse, and then turn around and blame the KJ, equipment or track because they do not bring down the house with applause. This is sometimes even true if the "adjustments" requested actually made the song sound worse.

As KJs we all have had the experience of a singer that gets up on stage and acts like they just made a gold medal performance, while the listeners were in reality counting the seconds until it ended.

I have some regular singers that I consider to be very good, and occasional visitors that fall into that class as well. Some of them will sing with no adjustment or just trust me to do it. Others will reqest a slight change sometimes.

But when I get a request to make A LOT of changes to the settings, I have yet to be impressed with the results. Someday I may be proven wrong, but that is just my experience.

This is not to say that a KJ can't have a setup where he makes EVERYONE including the good singers sound bad. Those cases are rarely fixable by just changing the settings on the board though.

I've been to shows where the KJ makes NO adjustments at all during the night. He sets the volumes for the music and the microphones based on his first song of the night and that's where you stay unless you specifically let him know that you might need an adjustment. Like Cueball, I have some tracks that for one reason or another were not recorded very loud and usually need to be turned up a little bit to be as loud as what the normal volume has been in the room all night. I don't think I'm being a DIVA because I know that my track isn't going to be loud enough to fit the KJ's mix if he doesn't bring up the music level to match the mic levels.

Karaoke has always been about singers from every level of ability. While I may not enjoy a certain singer's performance no matter how many adjustments are requested and or made, I believe that every singer should be able to get those adjustments if it makes them feel better about their singing. To gripe about providing this service because the singer is gonna suck anyway is just another toll booth collector attitude. You just want to sit there through a 3 or 4 or 5 hour show and just hit the play button and nothing else. How tough is it to make some markings on your mixer for where you seem to have the best over all sound and then after your "adjusted" singer is done, you just move everything back to those marked positions?

Never used the quote, so Same answer as I gave in the thread "Singers that bring their own discs". The answer about making REDICULOUS adjustments.

Srnitynow

Oh and KARAOKE is FUN.

Thanks tovmod. And an excellent post Dr. Fred! Good point as well Bruce but MANY kjs take this seriuosly and ARE NOT the one's that "set-it and forget it". THOSE KJS would never come onto a forum like this because they usually think they know everything to begin with.

We've ALL been to bad shows before where the kj doesn't seem to care about the sound and just concentrates on the wild fun and a lot of them get drunk themselves, but i would think that nearly all the kjs here on this forum are NOT THAT TYPE OF BAD KJ, as we ALL are trying to perfect the "Art of mixing" FOR THE SINGERS so THEY can have all the FUN FUN FUN!!

Once again to reiterate, making a few minor adjustments is easy and it's NO PROBLEM, but when you are being "directed on how to do your job", are complained and whined to, and can be ultimately blamed for a song not being perfect... well it seems there is NO pleasing that person and they become a pain in the arse. Certainly NOT a majority of disc-bringers, but SOME that require hand-holding too much. I bring discs and let the kj do their job so i believe i am not diva-ish.

Karaoke is whatever the singer makes it--some are artists and some are out for just fun. But there isn't a job out there that doesn't get a kibbitzer every now and then be it veterinarian or washer repairman.

I would love it if people would tell me if their discs play loud or soft. I don't mind that at all. The one that bugs me is the person who constantly is asking for more reverb everytime they sing. I consider it my job to take care of sound. I just smile and say sure while it secretly irks me.

I'd say karaoke is fun. But more serious fun for certain individuals.

I had 3 professional singers at my show last night. One was a Neil Diamond impersonator, an entire band came in to find a back up singer ( there lead singer brought the house down), and another gal was a backup singer for a Vegas show here visiting family. Amazing voices all obviously professional ! It was a pleasure mixing for them. Not one of them asked for adjustments. Hmmm makes you think.

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DOESN'T IT?

What a fabulous observation, Babs!

The average karaoke singer is not a professional singer and does need some adjustments to sound as good as possible on some songs. A professional singer knows what songs he can sing in their original key so he doesn't have to ask for an adjustment. he picks songs that are in his range. If the KJ is doing his or her job well, why would a professional need to ask for an adjustment? There are many KJ's who do a great job with their sound system. There are some that don't have a clue as to how to adjust a board. Many KJ's are hired by multi show hosts and they just teach them the basics of getting the songs up on screen and that's it.

It can be either/or/both. The karaoke diva and the karaoke drunk, though they both may annoy the kj, have one thing in common--they both like music. People may not like the diva-ish aspects of the diva, but at the core of the diva is still someone who likes to sing. And people may not like the shouting of the drunk, but somewhere in the drunk is a singer as well. The balladeer and party animal like singing too. Some songs, like Fleetwood Mac's Dreams, are more Artsy. Other songs are more fun.

EACH AND EVERY SONG HAS TO BE MIXED AND ADJUSTED.

Many brands of discs were recorded at different volume levels(either louder or quieter).

Each singer has as differnent voice strength.

If you dont mix and adjust the song throughout it can be disasterous.

When they start becoming bossy, demanding and irritating instead of asking for help and a part of your and them musical TEAM(as it is a TEAM effort to make them sound best) then I start loosing patience with them and ultimately will tell them to knock it off or that Ill take care of the mixing and they simply sing.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Well it's supposed to be for fun, however if the sound system sucks, the kj's don't know what they are doing, the selection quality is garbage, it does not make for a fun fun fun night as a singer or as a listener.
I think a good karaoke company can make the show fun while also making it an art form at the same time. They take the time to adjust every singer/song, have quality selection, giving special options at their shows as playing discs, among other things. This creates a higher art over one that just splashes paint on a sheet & frames it like in the first paragraph.

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There is no fun singing when the mix is bad. If the KJ knows his/her job and is constantly behind the board ACTUALLY mixing; there is no reason to make request for vocal eq or even vocal efx. I would make key change request if required.

As a Kj I have absolutely no problem about people make request for vox efx change or even vox eq adjustment (within reason). I have never interpret such request as unreasonable.

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Babs, see this is because a true professional singer is used to relying on a professional to take care of the sound reinforcement duties. They're focused on doing what they need to do for their performance to be a good as possible and let you do what you need to do. In my experience, very few professional singers truly understand audio engineering, most will admit that and few would even want to understand it if they could.

Now that said, I've certainly had the displeasure of mixing singers (both in Karaoke an other settings) who thought because they get paid a hundred bucks to sing clubs that they're the end all be all of audio engineering mastery. It's always quickly apparent that they couldn't tell the difference between what I'm giving them and what they're asking for, so ultimately I manage them pretty easily. Anyone who thinks they can judge the house mix from what they hear on stage is pretty ridiculous in my book. Most of the time if someone asks me for a change (like for instance more reverb) I'll make the change to the monitor mix and the house mix remains in my control. This way they're happy and think I've done them a service and they're right only the service I've actually done is to save them from themselves.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Letitrip - This statement is so true !

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The club I run has a sound system that is used by bands on nights other than karaoke.

While most of the bands are not "great", it being a small venue, many of them are touring acts that it would seem have a fair bit of experience.

When thes bands set the mics, inevitably the result is a sound where normal speach is no longer understandable.

It is my experience that the better the band, the less adjustment outside of simple volume is made by the band.

For music and especially karaoke I like to be able to understand at least some of what is being sung (not necessaraly every word). The more effects thrown into the mix the less that is possible.

- Sometimes I get a little self-conscious because I have my fingers on the mixer almost all the time. I'm constantly tweaking within a song, within a verse or phrase, trying to find that special sound.
- Does anybody else mix with their eyes closed? I just find it helps me sometimes. (Maybe I'm a ninja KJ.)
- I have learned as a KJ that a good KARAOKE mix usually means boosting the vocals well up over the music. The singer is not up there to hear the background music. (In addition, some of my singers have dainty little voices and just not enough "oomph" to accomplish what they want.)
- I find that many karaoke singers do NOT understand mixing, they just say "more reverb" or "turn it up" as catch-all phrases for "please make me sound better."
- With my regulars, my mixing has become a matter of trust between us. They believe I am trying to help them, and they believe they are improving.
- I can see the humor in having a very demanding singer telling me just how the mix should be when this singer has no idea of even how to hold a microphone.
- Sometimes I have used letitrip's trick of adjusting only the monitor for certain singers.

I think as a KJ if we have more than just a vague idea about what we're doing behind the board (I know, some don't have the vaguest idea), then it will be fun for all singers. I won't go back to a show where the KJ doesn't at least stay at the board momentarily once a song begins to tweak things. If we do our job and make them sound great, they're free to have more fun - less self conscious about how they sound -- who knows, they may have been bragging like a foooo before getting to the show about how great a singer they are (have had this happen before).

In my experience, the really great singers, and we have a bundle of them, trust us to do our job. They'll listen to the singers before them, realize they're getting a great mix and then figure that in all probability, so will they. I had one guy tell me he wanted no efx at all - I love that. My efx are mixed so that you can't even tell they're there until they're NOT there. He sounded like crap. Next time he comes up, he says, oh please can you put some "reverb" on this time? I said that I couldn't give him a reverb but that I'd take care of it for him. He was much happier the second time. I think some singers just want to share their very special knowledge

Oh, I went to a show run by a hostess who has been doing it for a long time. She has run an absolutely DRY board for years. I begged her to please give me a touch of efx (lazy singer sometimes, and only perfect singers can sing dry anyway) and she said okay, reaches over, and I have no idea what she did but certainly not add efx - turns out she had NO IDEA how to turn up the efx. She has the same board as I so I gave her a 1-minute lesson. Her singers are very much happier now, but I don't think she even HEARS vocal efx. Of course the rest of her EQ'ing was really poor, too - she has subs and they just overtake anything else, but I'm not in the biz of making other hosts sound great. So at times it is just ignorance (see above - vaguest idea) that could be fixed in one minute, that takes the fun out of a performance.

Well, it's been interesting to read all of the different responses to this subject.

However, I intended the original question to be interpreted somewhat differently. To me, what I was trying to get at was:

Do most people, including yourself, participate in karaoke to have fun or do you feel that karaoke attendees are there to perform or hear a work of art?

Now, to clarify:
As a KJ, having fun is my primary goal for the crowd. And having fun is a function of how the crowd reacts to ALL the singers and interacts with one another.

If you sing your favorite/best song and give the best performance of your life and no one is even paying attention, how do you feel about that experience? Was it art, was it fun, does it really matter after you realize that people neither reacted to the art nor seemingly had fun?

What if you perform a song for the first time and just nailed it, but the crowds reaction was luke warm or non-existent? Is that fun for YOU?

What determines the amount of satisfaction you get out of one of your karaoke performances? Is it how well you sang or how much you enjoyed yourself? Or is it how the crowd reacts to the particular song selection? Or is it how the crowd reacts to your performance?

And as some have suggested in other threads on related topics: Often the amount of fun a person/crowd has results from factors other than the quality of athe equipment. We've recently had a thread that reflected that in the opinion of most, the KJ's personality is more important than the quality of the equipment. And consider if the equipment is lacking, supposedly the sound is lacking as well and the art will suffer.

I have attended many shows with "sub-par" everything (equipment, mix, library, singer accommodations), but nonetheless draw a large crowd. I've been to stereotypical great shows with great equipment, mix, library that have failed.

So, for me, it has got to be the "fun factor". Only if the technical factors are absolutely terrible, will I be concerned about anything other than having fun. The art part of karaoke is NOT, IMHO, the most important factor for attracting the average attendee to a show! Particularly when you consider that few karaoke singers, relative to the universe of karaoke singers, are "artists"!

And let me give you just one additional reason why I find it hard to call karaoke an art. The best singers of the last half of the twentieth century often remade (covered) hit songs. Those talents, such as Sinatra, Presley, Bennett, Bing Crosby, never tried to sound like the artist who had the hit with the song; they made the song "theirs" when they sung it.

I don't find any artistry in karaoke singers practicing a song so that they mimic the original artist. And while it's not possible with every song, many songs produced for karaoke can by "stylized" so that the karaoke singer DOESN"T have to provide a rendition/arrangement of the sound that duplicates the original artist's style. Just MHO!

On the other hand, many people do pay for and enjoy going to shows put on by Elvis emulators. I think that speaks for itself. That audience is comprised of Elvis fans (fanatics). Personally, I am not fanatical about too many singers and those that I am, can't be replicated by the typical or even extraordinary karaoke singer.

Sorry Tov - a bit off topic



I've caught myself doing it too. Usually when I have a duet harmonizing.



OT-

I'd say fun. The art part is a part of that. For your serious karaoke person sounding good is a part of the fun of it.

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