Karaoke Forums

DJTOMMYB:
I don't believe that you are stating that you have no problem playing their 200 discs or any part of them! You are disappointed because you actually DON'T get to play but a few of them, correct?

At the risk of repeating myself, I have stated in the past on the subject of "customer discs" that there is a whole number of self-esteem issues going on with so many of the people who bring their own discs and ignore the KJ's library.

CONSIDER:
Why would anyone consistently carry a "volume" of discs when they use the same 5-10 over and over?
Perhaps it raises (in their own minds) their esteem in the eyes of others who are not so enmeshed with karaoke as to have any discs of their own, much less hundreds of them?

Why would anyone sing the same 5-10 songs over and over? Perhaps its because they don't have the self-confidence to try something new even though they have the equipment/tools to practice many new songs. They believe that the ones they constantly sing sound great and, more important, that the public enjoys hearing them sing those songs?

I know that people have different tastes as to what they like, as to what is good and what is not, and as to what is fun.

At the risk of being scorned, and rightfully so, I will say IMHO that the couple described in this thread believe they are participating in an Art Form. I so state that because I canNOT for the life of me see how anyone can consider what that couple is doing is - "fun" ( see the thread about "ART FORM VS FUN"). I believe that they are attending the show to "show off" what they have accomplished, as part of what they believe to be an ART FORM. And while they clearly can get satisfaction from and think that what they do is enjoyable, they haven't considered that they are not really having fun! To me, fun doesn't begin until you "let loose" and get TOTALLY involved in an activity!

START FLAMING

And I know people who are scornful of artists who had to do just that as they aged and these "fans" won't go to those artist's concerts any longer.

People don't remember that for a short while Frank Sinatra went into singing "retirement". I believe at that time he had pretty much "lost his voice". He stopped singing for a year or two and then suddenly returned to the singing stage. I believe he went into extensive vocal training. IMHO, when he returned, his voice was definitely "different". In short, he lost more than just his range but made a successful return in spite of anyone who may have quipped that he wasn't the "old" Sinatra!

Them there is the mentality that believes that if you can't sing a song in the original key you shouldn't attempt it at all.

People have their biases and it is those biases that often lead to disrespectful posts on this forum!

"OLD BLUE EYES IS BACK" was and still is a great album. I have it on vinyl somewhere around here.

Elton John is a good example of a guy who doesn't sing all of his songs in the original key but I'd go listen to that genius sing any day of the week. I don't care if "BENNY AND THE JETS" sounds a little different. They're his songs and he has every right to change them around if he so chooses.

MIchael Buble has made a career out of singing other people's songs just a bit differently.

There is an irony to the preceding that I "slightly" touched upon in a previous post I had made.

As I understand it, a main, if not the main, inhibitor to companies producing karaoke CDG's has to do with the availability of and/or the associated cost of obtaining what is know as "syncopation rights".

You, BFFL, are ignoring the issue of syncopation rights when you produce your own karaoke files. Then you bring your trove of illegal tracks to a show; you don't keep them for solely for your own personal use. Then other singers show up with burnt discs that are also not legal. And even if the host has a 100% legal karaoke library, he is playing illegal tracks from burnt discs.

And I literally know of shows where the libraries are legal but the KJ has a crowd that mostly (90% or more) sing from burnt discs that they bring.

Doesn't this all get a little confusing when discussing what is a legit show? Or, more so, when you, BFFL, suggest that someone is a pirate?

I think the sychronization rights are something that applies to people that are in business and are planning on selling the tracks that they produce. In that instance the people who own the rights to the songs and the lyrics want to get their piece of the pie. When I create a cdg file for myself or someone else there is no money changing hands and there is no "PIE" to be split up. Once I purchase a backing track from an online source, I have the personal rights to use that song any way at all for my personal use.

If I make a cdg file for myself or a friend of mine, I don't see how or why a music publisher would want to waste their time coming after me because I like to sing a particular song that I paid for. It would be no different than if I wrote the words down on a piece of paper. Now if I opened up a web site and tried to SELL the tracks that I have made; I'd expect to be contacted by someone eventually about them receiving some cash from me. I belive that the PERSONAL USE RIGHTS of a consumer are protected on this issue. If I'm wrong, I'll deal with it when the time comes.

So far, so good.

One more thing. I never said that I had a problem going to shows that are run by pirates. They seem to be everywhere and they are hard to avoid these days. I have a problem going to shows that are run by pirates that refuse to spend a few extra bucks so they can play my tracks or any other singer's tracks. If these "pirates" want to get their songs from Sound Choice without paying for them, that is for the law to clear up, not me.

However, If these "pirates" want me to bring my tracks on a thumb drive instead of a disc, it's my job to make sure they don't steal from me. That is why I prefer to bring discs instead of digital tracks. I'm trying to protect my PERSONAL FILES. They are not for sale or duplication. If you want me to make you one, purchase the backing track and I'll do my best to get it done for you. I do them because they are FUN to produce...It's like solving a crossword puzzle to me.

The Copyright Act does not differientiate between selling or not. If I make a thousand copies of whatever and give them away, it is a vioaltion of the Act. Cash value only comes into play in the prosecution of the offender.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

If you're wrong, then the KJ and possibly the venue may find themselves entangled in the legal wrangle as well.

But let's please not turn this into another pointless discussion re the legalities/illegalities of karaoke.

Most of those things only become illegal when you sell them (or give them away en masse).

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I believe that there are exceptions when it comes to personal use. If I transfer files from a Sound Choice disc to a cassette so I can play it in my car, I think that it's a safe bet that I'm not going to be sued.

I also think that it's a safe bet that if I sing a song at a karaoke bar from a track that I made using a backing track I purchased on line, I'm not going to be prosecuted for it. Like I've said before....I'll take my chances.

If I go to a show and they won't play my home made tracks, I'll just sing them some where that will. It hasn't been a problem so far.

I remember years ago buying a disc from Sound Choice that just had music on it because they couldn't get the rights to show the lyrics on the screen for those songs. I made cgd files for the songs on that disc that I liked and have been singing them for years. Not one KJ has ever complained to me about using them. Sound Choice is running around looking to file law suits against people who don't have original discs for the files they have on their hard drives. If someone from Sound Choice recognized their music that I was singing to and questioned me about it, I have the original Sound Choice disc with those files on them. Sound Choice is filing suits for copyright infringement. My creation of a cdg file has nothing to do with Sound Choice.

Pocket Songs is famous for selling some tracks without lyrics. If it's a song I want to sing, I buy it and make the cdg file for myself. I don't see a problem. I don't see any monetary damages to the copyright holder so I don't see any reason for them to be looking for me. I can only imagine the bad press that an artist would receive for filing a law suit against one of his fans for wanting to sing one of his songs at a karaoke bar. Maybe Springsteen would get wind of me being such a big fan that he'd make all of his songs available to me to conver to karaoke tracks. Hey!!! A guy can dream, can't he? I purchased Pocket Songs JT 379 for some Springsteen songs. No lyrics on any of the tracks so I made my own. I feel safe.

I have been to many shows where the same people sing the same songs over and over again. And yes, most of them are singing from the KJ's library. Maybe they don't have the confidence, as you suggest, to move out of their comfort zone. Maybe they can't find anything else suitable in the KJ's library. Either way, whether they bring in their own discs or not, there are those that do so... it's what they like to sing and isn't that what karaoke is about? peoples' enjoyment through singing the songs they like to sing?

Perhaps singers sing the same songs because it is a fact that others do enjoy hearing them sing those songs and the singer knows that fact because they have been told so, or have been requested to sing those songs.

My suggestion to you would be to talk to them, let them know you are interested in their collection and hint/suggest that you'd like to hear them sing some of the other songs they have. Awareness that someone else is interested in their collection may be a catalyst to them broadening their repertoire.

You could start off by saying something like "I see you have quite a collection of discs there. Do you mind if I take a look at them?" Then as you're browsing through the discs with them, you could say something like "oh, you have this song... I'd like to hear you sing that."

Hope that helps.

Ditto on what Murrlyn said. I like looking at other's karaoke collections just to see what they like and what songs they have. They would probably be glad to sing any songs you requested. It is easy to get into a rut, and sometimes you need someone to bump you out of it.

I'm not a kj, but I've asked singers to sing certain songs that I've heard them sing before and that I'd like to hear them sing again.

Ah,,but can you define personal use at discussed in copyright law?

If the words appear without permission on the screen during your performance, and you are entertaining people in a public venue, and the host of the show is being paid... where does "personal" use end?

And you raised an interesting point for me. Why DON'T you bring in a CD and either just sing the words from memory or read them from a piece of paper rather than going through the effort of creating a CDG?

I don't know exactly where the legal line is drawn but I'm willing to take my chances that I haven't crossed it to the point where Bruce Springsteen is going to break down my door with a search warrant for ten songs from a Pocket Songs disc. There are probably thousands of people out there putting on karaoke shows every night with tens of thousands of tracks that were not purchased legally. I think the powers that be will go after those people long before they come looking for little old me with my couple dozen home made tracks.

I have a lousy memory. I can't seem to remember lyrics well. I don't mind putting out the effort to make my home made tracks look as good as a professional track. I only have to create the CDG track one time and it is always there for me to use. To me, that is easier than having to carry around a binder full of sheets of paper....not to mention trying to read them in a dark environment.

No one can, because it varies from country to country.

In the US, the relevance is as to fair use. I believe it easily meets the definition of fair use, presuming the backing track is purchased. Remember that the main purpose of music as sold for backing tracks is for it to be performed. And that the largest test is the fourth, the one where the effect on the work's value is measured. It is far from clear that the use detracts from the work's value in the slightest, indeed it might be argued that it is kept alive and the value enhanced by it being performed.

Now if one made up karaoke CDs and gave them to all comers, it isn't fair use anymore. Publishing them on a web site, even sans music, might detract from the value by limiting the market for other derivative works.


That would essentially be the same. Especially if the screen was not visible to the audience.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Thanks for the advice I hope to see them in the coming week. They keep the slips from other shows they go to and I will ask to look at them and make a suggestion for "NEW" stuff from them.

Keep it rockin

I can totally relate to that. I don't think there are but a handful of songs that I can sing without seeing the lyrics!

Finally!!! Someone sort of agrees with me. LOL

I would rather spend my time learning how to sing a new song than rehearse one song over and over in an effort to memorize the words when I'm only going to ever sing it at karaoke and there will always be a screen for me to look at. It may cost me some style points when entering a karaoke contest but I never expect to win them anyway because I'm usually glued to the screen when I'm singing. I just like entering them because I usually get to hear really good performances on Contest Night. I've won some and I've lost a lot more of them. I never mind losing as long as the winner isn't a terrible singer and only won because their entire family showed up to up the applause factor for them.