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And ASCAP, And the other ones one to charge the same for karaoke as they do for a jukebox seven nights a week. Kar0oke that is 4 hours a week Lets discuss parity..

Yet They want as much for a jukebox

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Unfortunately once you cross a threshold of once a week you are locked into a higher level fee for karaoke.

I think what is wrong with ASCAP/BMI is that they BOTH do not post the forms that you fill out to find out your fee on the web anymore. A couple years ago I could find the fee schedules but they both seem to have removed the bar/nightclub liscencing agreement form from their websites.

I think that they are somewhat running a system where there is a lot of leeway in how much they charge for each establishment. Various measures are going to be unsatisfactory in many ways (square feet is unimportant if only 5% of the capacity is regularly used). The number of hours of entertainment is difficult to calculate, and of course they cant just ask of X% of the establishment's revenue.

I get the feeling that by pleading poverty most bars can substantially reduce ASCAP/BMI costs. I may be wrong here, but by making thei fees non-transparent the system appears open to abuse.

ASCAP/BMI Aaarg!

There are many things wrong with the way they are organized, but the jukebox argument usually isn't a problem because most vendors pay the fees not the bar owner. They obtain a license from JLO. I've not seen a jukebox yet that the vendors haven't already paid for JLO and have a sticker on them.

I found this which maybe helpful to some:

Tips to Help Restaurants and Bars Save Money on Music Licensing

If your business uses only customer-played music on a vendor-owned jukebox, the vendor may have already secured the necessary license from JLO.
If you own and operate a traditional jukebox, you may qualify to save money by licensing through the Jukebox Licensing Office (JLO). Contact the JLO at 1-800-955-5853 or e-mail them at jukebox@edge.net.

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The average ASCAP/BMI fees work out to 3 to 5 dollars a day for the average bar. If you can't afford that without going broke, you shouldn't be in business anyway. Songwriters deserve to get paid too you know.

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Dave's not here.

Sure it may only be 3-5 a day but that comes to over 1k a year. Sure it is not the difference between broke and ok business nearly all of the time, but the question is that are some bars paying $3 while others pay $5 for essentially the same situation.

From all apperances it looks like some bars pay far more than others in nearly identical situations and it is all based on arbitrary indirect measures of business volume.

Yet again you assume the fees you pay (or that are paid) go to the proper person..

(the actual person that has the copyright)

Prove this, and I'll agree you have a point..

Else, it's all pizzing in the wind..

If you were a songwriter and you weren't getting paid, would you license your music through ASCAP? If so why?

If you can't come up with a good answer for that one, then there's your proof songwriters are getting paid by ASCAP.

I don't think the average bar owner gives a hoot in hell who's getting paid as long as they're getting theirs.

I get mine, not that I have any big hits. I've had some airplay overseas, and had the occasional cut picked up for film/tv/advertising. It's no huge amount in my case.

I've got friends that had a few popular bluegrass albums. They made some nice checks for a while, and still get some income from the songs on those albums that they share writing credits for.

I also have a friend that wrote a song for Cher on her 1980 "I Paralyze" album, and does a lot of jingles for businesses in the LA area. He gets his checks too.

ASCAP/BMI/SESAC all work very hard to make sure its members get the money collected for them.

Most non-members seem to choose to believe otherwise for some reason.

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Dave's not here.

It's all dependant on what other entertainment they offer and seating capacity of the bar. More entertainment & more seating equal more money. Smaller bars don't pay as much.

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True it is based on seating capacity, but they have some leway to cut the price on big bars that are obviously running way below capacity on nearly all nights.


A bar may have backrooms that are nearly always empty but count for the seating capacity.

Doesn't matter.
It's not like radio where each song gets documented and paid per play, when & how many times - it's a blanket type situation to cover all bases wether a bar is full or not.

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Actually, radio stations don't document each time a song is played.
How it works is the royalty companies pick several different stations, and several different times. Then they "audit" those stations for say, an hour, and document everything playing during that hour. Might be two or even more hours, but for our example I chose an hour.
Then, with a mathematical formula based on averages, and the likelihood of further song play, they calculate how much royalty owners should get paid.
As for the royalty companies doing what they are supposed to, and getting the royalties to those they're owed to, it doesn't quite happen like you think it does. My hubby was in a band a few years back and they had quite a bit of radio airplay. They didn't get paid NEAR what they should have.
Why?
Because when they audited, their song wasn't played during that time or rotation ,or they didn't audit the stations that played their song.
The only time the royalty owners make a lot of money from radio airplay is when they are the top 10 or so and they are in heavy rotation. Otherwise, it's peanuts.
The real money, as any artist can tell you, is in live concerts, appearances, and merchandising. You just don't get anything from radio airplay and CD's.

Diafel said: The real money, as any artist can tell you, is in live concerts, appearances, and merchandising. You just don't get anything from radio airplay and CD's.


Radio airplay for a band new to the national scene is something that they rely on heavily to establish credibility with big concert booking agents. My husband's band is #11 on the college metal charts this week - steadily moving up (14 points from last week)- and that is definitely opening doors for them (above bands like Atreyu, etc.) Yes, merchandise brings in a good base for them, as do CD sales, but they are also set up on the 'net through multiple sites to use paypal now, etc., which is bringing in an increasing percentage of money. They are on an original (their own) label so the pie isn't cut too many ways. They are in the rotation on several non-college stations as well but more on the east coast than the west. ASCAP? Don't think they're being taken care of in that respect. (Google "Dog Leg Preacher" if you're interested. My husband is the lead singer.)

My problem with how things are being done is that there isn't just one entity collecting money for artists. We regularly hear about BMI and ASCAP because they are the big dogs, but there are several others. When the bar I work at starting getting letters from all these organizations he flipped out. They all threaten legal action will be taken if they're not paid. I can see how some people can get overwhelmed thinking they have to pay them all. I just wish there was a better way to collect money for the artists. I agree they deserve to paid. There should be one entity collecting money for artists that is accountable for their business practices.

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ASCAP's radio survey uses information provided to them by station logs (lists of works performed) provided to them by the radio stations, and by recorded tapes of actual broadcasts, and ASCAP also monitors and measures music and advertisement airplay on more than 2500 college, non-commercial and commercial radio stations in over 150 US markets, real time, 24/7 using Mediaguide. ( http://www.mediaguide.com/ )

So, diafel's explanation of the "audit" is only part of the process. As for how much each song gets documented, http://www.ascap.com/licensing/radio/pd ... icense.pdf has pertinent information

Well I interned at 2 local stations up here when I was in high school & yes each and every song was logged by the dj playing them (no automation), at what time they were played & how many times. Can't imagine that really changing or maybe it's a difference between Canadian & US licensning.

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I spent 17 years in US radio. Diafel is correct. A top 100 market station will do ascap/bmi/sesac logging for a few days out of the year, if at all. Even back in the day we would just submit our music logs and that would suffice. I recall doing it just a handful of times over nearly two decades.

In Canada things are much different. Not because of royalty licensing, but due to "Canadian Content" laws. The Canadian government mandates that all Canadian radio stations MUST play a minimum of 35% Canadian content using the MAPL formula (Music, Artist, Production, Lyrics). You must have two of the four for a song to be considered "Canadian". Canadian stations must send in weekly/monthly reports proving they have done this. It's a major pain for Canadian programmers.

My point is that the radio stations may have to pay based on a formula of which songs they play but thier rate is probably based on an estimate of the listening audience.

A radio station in a remote area with few listeners probably pays less to ASCAP/BMI than a radio station in a large metro area with a big market share for playing the same songs.

With radios they can get away with this because they base the rates in part on ratings and listeners numbers can be estimated.

The same is true for a bar. BUT it is based on capacity not occupancy. A bar with a capacity of 100 but with an average occupancy of 80 will pay less than a bar with a capacity of 250 and an average occupancy of 40.

Of course occupancy is what makes the money, so in a way it is an biased way of charging the bar.

ASCAP/BMI knows this so when the bar with the 250 capacity that it never fills, compalains about the rates they can be adjusted. That is the reason the rate schedule is not public. That is what I was trying to explain is unfair about ASCAP/BMI.

I am all in favor of collecting revenue for the artists, but it would seem that the cost should be based on how many people not floor tiles are exposed to the music.

Of course floorspace can be measured, occupancy is more difficult, and the owners of course are not going to make that estimate easy for an outsider (the owners know the average occupancy, ASCAP may not).

The thing with Canada is there is just the one entity collecting, SOCAN. Maybe that's what needs to happen, one organization to deal with it all.

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Timber- just out of curiosity is SOCAN a government run agency? And do you know what the average fee is a yr for an average venue? I've never heard anyone complain about them. Maybe Canada's got it figured out.

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